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Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

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Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:20 pm

Please, for the love of God, sport and gym climbers please STOP using dogbone quickdraws to clip into trad gear. This can cause substantially greater "walking" of gear and pull out, or at least weaken, a decent placement. Use a longer, more flexible runner. I keep seeing this more and more as climbing gyms have opened up the sport to greater numbers of people. I just want everyone to have as much fun, as safely as possible.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:46 pm

Does that include the use of these dealies on more delicate placements?

Image


BTW: If "Trad" Pro (i.e. CAMS cus Stoppers should not be "walking". If they are, then one has a more dire issue that requires addressing), is properly placed, "walking" is a moot point thus the use of "draws" is adequate. Right?
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby mattyj » Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:32 pm

Kahuna wrote:BTW: If "Trad" Pro (i.e. CAMS cus Stoppers should not be "walking". If they are, then one has a more dire issue that requires addressing), is properly placed, "walking" is a moot point thus the use of "draws" is adequate. Right?


I don't follow this. Are you suggesting that only poorly placed gear is susceptible to walking?
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:11 pm

mattyj wrote:
Kahuna wrote:BTW: If "Trad" Pro (i.e. CAMS cus Stoppers should not be "walking". If they are, then one has a more dire issue that requires addressing), is properly placed, "walking" is a moot point thus the use of "draws" is adequate. Right?


I don't follow this. Are you suggesting that only poorly placed gear is susceptible to walking?


1. I do hope you realize that "Stoppers" should never "walk". If they do, then the placement is totally suspect in the first place.

2. If a CAM, regardless the Manufacture, is placed in an even Parrallel Crack system, it will "walk". That is a given. Ironically, if one utilizes a "4-6" draw" instead of a 24" standard "runner" unless it is applied in the shortened Alpine Draw length (then it is no different than a standard draw), it will allow the CAM to possibly walk the entire 24" length and making it almost impossible to be retrieved by the 2nd.

3. For my original point, when a CAM is properly placed in an other than above scenario #2, it will not "wallk" due to a natural "stop" inside the crack preventing it from doing so. When placing a CAM in cracks, I almost always locate a natural stop in the crack within a reasonable depth that allows for this measure. Amazingly, I have found many variables in cracks such as a inwardly tappering crack system or a inward protusion or jammed rock etc that prevents the CAM from walking any deeper than where I originally placed it.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby divnamite » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:44 pm

Oh, shit, a lot of crack and aid climbers are gonna die!!!
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Burchey » Tue Apr 02, 2013 6:55 pm

Kahuna wrote:
1. I do hope you realize that "Stoppers" should never "walk". If they do, then the placement is totally suspect in the first place.

2. If a CAM, regardless the Manufacture, is placed in an even Parrallel Crack system, it will "walk". That is a given. Ironically, if one utilizes a "4-6" draw" instead of a 24" standard "runner" unless it is applied in the shortened Alpine Draw length (then it is no different than a standard draw), it will allow the CAM to possibly walk the entire 24" length and making it almost impossible to be retrieved by the 2nd.

3. For my original point, when a CAM is properly placed in an other than above scenario #2, it will not "wallk" due to a natural "stop" inside the crack preventing it from doing so. When placing a CAM in cracks, I almost always locate a natural stop in the crack within a reasonable depth that allows for this measure. Amazingly, I have found many variables in cracks such as a inwardly tappering crack system or a inward protusion or jammed rock etc that prevents the CAM from walking any deeper than where I originally placed it.


"stoppers" when properly placed typically "have" a slight possibility to be popped out with a reasonable upward "tug" by the rope, as a 2nd shouldn't have to battle with "the" stopper to remove it - there should be some lateral and upward friction on the piece to hopefully prevent this, but not a ton. I don't know many climbers that short-clip a nut - especially in Lee Vining.

Extended draws provide several benefits in the alpine anyway - you can help mitigate rope drag (especially on a single), you can sling something in a pinch, help reduce upward pull on gear when you can't find those choice placements like the Chief mentioned. I think quickdraws should stay far away from pure trad or alpine routes. They may have a place in Aid climbing, but I'm not really familiar with that medium.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Vitaliy M. » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:18 pm

Kahuna, you remind me of an old friend.

Please, for the love of God, sport and gym climbers please STOP using dogbone quickdraws to clip into trad gear.


I think if you use it properly, it will not walk too much. Indian creek for example...how many people do you see clipping straight into cams? Many many many. Most of the people i see climbing clip shoulder length slings that are still doubled into pieces...how much different is that from a draw?

My current standard alpine set up for runners has 2 double length runners, 7 shoulder length, and 5 light weight draws. It depends on a route though. Not saying it's a golden way to go, but works for me/saves weight.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Burchey » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:23 pm

Vitaliy M. wrote:
I think if you use it properly, it will not walk too much. Indian creek for example...how many people do you see clipping straight into cams? Many many many. Most of the people i see climbing clip shoulder length slings that are still doubled into pieces...how much different is that from a draw?


That's a good point - if the crack is right on the face, and the route is clean and pretty much vertical, clipping the cam directly would be fine/is often done. Seems like variation in the face or wandering nonsense is what allows the rope to start jerking around on the biner.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:40 pm

I think quickdraws should stay far away from pure trad ...


John Long, Bob Gaines and the late Craig Lueben seem to believe and practice differently as they insist that utilizing a "quick draw" attached to wired stoppers in a Trad Climbing" scenario is the "safe" way to go. And they can also safely be applied to any TCU/FCU placements.

This evidenced in the seven different editions of their world reknowned series.. How to Rock Climb and Climbing Anchors.

But then what do them old Trad Climbing/Stonemaster bastards know about any of this... huh?
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Burchey » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:42 pm

Kahuna wrote:
I think quickdraws should stay far away from pure trad ...


John Long, Bob Gaines and the late Craig Lueben seem to believe and practice differently as they insist that utilizing a "quick draw" attached to wired stoppers in a Trad Climbing" scenario is the "safe" way to go. And they can also safely be applied to any TCU/FCU placements.

This evidenced in the seven different editions of their world reknowned series.. How to Rock Climb and Climbing Anchors.

But then what do them old Trad Climbing/Stonemaster bastards know about any of this... huh?


Interesting. I'll check it out, I'm always open to learning new things.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Vitaliy M. » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:45 pm

From the tone of OP's post, I am kind of surprised he put 'sport' and 'gym' in the same sentence with 'climbers.' Unbelievable.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Burchey » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:49 pm

Vitaliy M. wrote:From the tone of OP's post, I am kind of surprised he put 'sport' and 'gym' in the same sentence with 'climbers.' Unbelievable.


To be fair, you have to be careful with the whole "gym climber" label. I know this is usually reserved for those that spend 99% of the time in the gym.

There are guys that climb at my gym that are very strong, and put up backcountry routes in the Sierra at levels I couldn't even dream of following. I watch them leading these insane overhanging routes in the cave, or suffering up the 5.13 finger crack - I feel shame.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Tue Apr 02, 2013 8:05 pm

And another one.

Quickdraws are clipped to the nut wire by the ascending climber and the rope threads through the quickdraw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nut_(climbing)


But then you gotta love this one as well!

http://climbing.wonderhowto.com/how-to/ ... ng-254284/

Damn them total wanna-be Gym Sport Climbers and their ill use of Quickdraw mentality. What do they know?:
Image
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Image
Image

Oh yeah, these French Fags applying them quick draws to the Alpine world. Damn them!
Image
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:42 pm

For starters, I wasn't trying to claim sport or gym climbers are lesser, nor was I implying they are beneath me. I climb in a gym 3 days a week to keep strength up and for convenience. My post was intended to bring awareness that apparently not many have. For starters, gym climbing is the reason we have so many strong climbers, and the reason we have 5.15. It's simply easier to get freaky strong when climbing is so close and accesible. The downside to all of this strength running around is the focus on strength rather than safety/technical details. The problem isn't climbing in a gym or sport climbing, it's when you have people who have ONLY done those disciplines that run out and grab some trad gear and hit a trad route that is the same grade as what they're climbing sport. When they're hanging there making their 4th attempt to find the right size cam, they realize they've made a big mistake. Little things like foregoing a short stiff dogbone for a doubled over full length can make a major difference in a cam's ability to walk. This wasn't directed at people who have been climbing trad for 10 years......it's for the people who are really strong in other disciplines and don't do their homework before hitting others. Hey, we've all been there and done that when it comes to little detail errors, but there are documented cases of multiple pieces zippering because of bad techniques that are perfectly fine on a sport climb. Simply trying to get people to stop and think.....that's all.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Burchey » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:07 pm

Wait, the French do it? I'm out then!
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