So I did Browns Peak this weekend (or at least I gave it a try) but ended up bailing out about 3/4 or so up the steep chute when things became almost vertical and I did not feel comfortable to continue on as I would have to downclimb it as well. Also, I was solo and didn't see anybody up there except a few cars at the trailhead and a few kids I passed who only hiked up to the saddle. This route felt a LOT more difficult to me than any class 3 stuff I had done on CO (Sawtooth, Father Dyer). Is this a general rule that a class 3 in AZ is harder than a class 3 in CO?

P.S.: Having said that, I still would like to give Browns another go so if anybody is interested in partnering up please shoot me a pm.

I found the fifth class ratings where I have climbing in Arizona (McDowell Mountains, Pinnacle Peak State Park, various bouldering areas around Phoenix) to be the most difficult of any area I have climbed.

I have found that Class 3 is harder just about everywhere than it is in Colorado.

Bob Sihler wrote:I have found that Class 3 is harder just about everywhere than it is in Colorado.

I do not have much comparison but the chute up Browns would definetely not be a class 3 in CO.

You might also get some comments from climbers in the Sierra Nevada who would call that chute on Browns "easy class 1", reserving class 3 for smooth vertical walls .

I have only downclimbed that chute on Browns, having ascended the peak twice by a brushy northern slope that also involves a couple of airy moves high on rock. I recall the chute being exposed, but only a couple of spots where the holds seemed marginal at best. Most of the time, there was enough room to stand or sit, like a series of ledges. Perhaps some 10-foot segments of that chute could be rated class 4. I tried ascending that route once with my wife, but found the looseness of the lower chute unsettling, so we bailed.

Having now a lot of experience with peaks all around Arizona, I think that the chute on Browns is still one of the hairier chutes I've ever dealt with. I had always been told to just take it in 10-foot segments and don't look outward. It has severe exposure.

As far as whether Class 3 in Arizona is tougher than elsewhere... that is hard to quantify. I think that once you get used to the type of rock in a certain region, the classifications may be technically correct, but the nature of the rock - its composition, tendency to flake, form nubbins or hangs, erosion patterns, and so on - can add a whole unquantifiable dimension to classification. While I feel comfortable on class-3 in AZ, I may not so much on class-3 in WA, since the rock up there just lays differently. The little nuances I have grown used to in AZ may not translate to other places immediately. So I'd feel uncomfortable at first.

Try approaching Browns from the north. Go about half-way up the slope toward the chute, then angle left and traverse through the trees to a rock fin, then up the slope behind it. There should be a rough path. At the very top, you will have to move along rock with easy moves, but lots of air all around you.

I commend you for doing this during this time of year! I have grown soft and stay indoors when the temps are above 110F (like now). I'd like to explore that part of the Mazatzals when it cools so keep me in mind.

surgent wrote:As far as whether Class 3 in Arizona is tougher than elsewhere... that is hard to quantify.

Of course, I did not expect that there is mathematical formula for this but having done a couple class 3 routes in CO I thought I tackle it and it felt a lot tougher.

surgent wrote:Try approaching Browns from the north. Go about half-way up the slope toward the chute, then angle left and traverse through the trees to a rock fin, then up the slope behind it. There should be a rough path. At the very top, you will have to move along rock with easy moves, but lots of air all around you.

Sounds like a good plan...and I do not mind air around me a long as stuff feels solids but in the lower part of the chute EVERYTHING you touch or step on moves.

surgent wrote:I commend you for doing this during this time of year! I have grown soft and stay indoors when the temps are above 110F (like now). I'd like to explore that part of the Mazatzals when it cools so keep me in mind.

Actually, it was not that hot. When I got there at 9:30am it was in the low 80s at the trailhead and there was a nice breeze at the saddle though now wind at all in the chute. When I got back to the car (like 2pm) it was in the low 90s. I will probably also wait to return until it cools (hard work in the chute is better done in cooler temps) so I will defintely keep you in mind.

I'm curious about this.

I climbed Browns a few years ago and I remember thinking it was about my limit. One spot took a little self-convincing for me to ascend, as I remember having to pull myself up with my hands, with my feet dangling. But, to my surprise, I thought the downclimb was easier.

I have seen this hike described as low as Class 2+. For that reason, I have become less excited about doing some Class 3 and 4 climbs in other areas, including Colorado. It would be interesting to hear how it compares to peaks such as Maroon Bells, Sneffels, and the Chicago Basin 14ers.

I've never been up Browns, but have been up Castle Dome (AZ) by the N-NE route; DPS rates that class 3 (and often dps sandbags a little). It seemed similar to the class 3 I normally do in the Sierra and southern Nevada. The route looks improbable, but the rock is good and there are lots of holds.

An awful lot of the difficulty perceived for "class 3" is in the accompanying conditions. There are near-vertical walls of siliceous limestone in the Spring Mountains of NV, but the rock is very grippy. Folks from CO are often climbing in rain on crappy rock, and that probably alters their perception.

I recall coming down the southwest ridge of Corkscrew Peak in Death Valley (we were cutting down to Little Corkscrew). One of the fellows in the group had just done all the Maroon peaks in CO. We asked him how hard it was, and his answer surprised us: "This is harder than Maroon Bells." But he had climbed the Bells in good weather, and they had taken the time to find a trail that threaded through ledges and cliffs. If the weather had sucked or he had gotten off-route, he might have had a different opinion.

There is a section near the top of Weaver's Needle in AZ that has been rated from Class 3 to 5.5. The rock is near-vertical, but is full of "buckets" for foot- and hand-holds; it seems like class 3 going up, but the exposure is huge, so we rapped down to save time.

MoapaPk wrote:I've never been up Browns, but have been up Castle Dome (AZ) by the N-NE route; DPS rates that class 3 (and often dps sandbags a little). It seemed similar to the class 3 I normally do in the Sierra and southern Nevada. The route looks improbable, but the rock is good and there are lots of holds.

I have been on both and would rate the chute on Castle Dome a shade "easier" than on Browns. Castle Dome's summit chute lays back very nicely with obvious ledges and holds everywhere, even though the exposure is very pronounced. Browns is longer and hence more exposed, and a little tighter as I recall. At worst on the Browns chute, I recall needing to somehow get down a couple 8-10 foot faces onto some firmer ground below (by firmer, I mean a 3-4 foot wide ledge with a couple hundred feet of runout below it). The holds were decent but not as beefy as I would have preferred.

On my one descent, I followed a group of three, including a father leading his 10-yr old daughter. He'd downclimb, then lead her through the spots, but she did all the actual scampering. I found that the potential "shame" factor of not being able to replicate what she was doing outweighed any concerns about falling that I may have had...

I think a big issue on Browns is also its looseness. The base is full of large blocks sitting on small scree, collected there over the eons. These big rocks move! On my one attempt to upclimb that chute, this is what drove me and my wife away.

Castle Dome is solid all the way and just when you get tired of the scrambling, boom, you're on top. Between the two, Castle Dome is much more exciting.

Were you off route????

I have bailed from a lot of "class 3" routes, only to discover years later that I was off route, and had missed a ledge system off to one side, or something similar.

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:Were you off route????

That is certainly a possibility though the chute gets quite narrow at the end so there shouldn't be too many options. Like I said, I'd like to do it again with a partner as I could have probably made it had I pushed it but did not feel comfortable since I was solo. It still felt a LOT harder than the class 3 routes I did in CO.

Take this with a grain of salt, on account I just don't have enough data points yet to say for sure...

My general experience in AZ is that a class 3 there is generally similar to CO. Definitely one of the less sandbagged states out west. I can't speak for the chute on Browns (having also only done that brushy north route like surgent), but have commonly heard it given ratings of 3+ or brief 4th. I have generally found AZ class 3 to be in the category of "really fun with a bit of thrill", right around what CO class 3 is to me. AZ/CO class 4 is also very manageable to me. As for Castle Dome, I think it depends which way you go when you get to that key saddle high on the peak--to the left is a steep chute with a chockstone I'd definitely call class 4, on the right is a sort of "stacked block" gully of rock that's supposed to be class 3 (we took the left option). Everything above that spot I'd call easy 3rd class.

Other states: CA class 3 is like CO/AZ 4th, and CA 4th, I'd want to be roped up for. Washington is supposed to be similarly sandbagged, to a lesser extent though--can't say for sure, the only "4th class" I've done there is Rainier, which being on snow is apples and oranges. Idaho, I found similar to CO/AZ. Montana, I feel is a bit tougher than CO/AZ--I know of at least two 4th class climbs where a decent fraction of people rope up. Not enough info to comment on the rest as of yet.

So, my general difficulty consensus would be: CA >>> WA >> MT > AZ ~ ID ~ CO, with CO perhaps being the easiest by a hair.

It varies hugely and subjectively; the only class 3 routes I've done in CO (little matterhorn; long's by old cable (1971!) and narrows; Kit Carson) seemed like class 2. But friends say there are some class 3 routes in CO that are really tough. It's a highly subjective rating system, especially with the vague infolding of exposure.

As for Castle Dome -- note there are several routes. The route from that goes to the west just before summit block is rated class 2.

It depends a lot on *who* did the rating. A lot of the harder peaks in AZ were rated by DPS, which is actually based in CA. DPS called the standard routes up Baboquivari and Weaver's Needle class 4, and you can climb them without setting protection.

I finally got to Browns today. There was nothing beyond what we call class 3 in NV, if you saw the workarounds. There was one chockstone that was somewhat difficult on descent. However, the slippery and loose talus, often on the very edge of class 3 sections, makes this a pretty dangerous climb

I also did Browns a couple days ago and the crux is where you have to pull yourself up on a ledge and some question the down climb which in the end is very easy. We saw a family make it up to this point and the father left the mother and son behind and followed us up to the summit. We saw another group turn around here on our way down. The other main crux below the ledge has a work around. That family I spoke about spent all this time dinking around with it and we just backtracked and went low and around though this is still not a huge problem. I found that choke stone on Sneffels to be much worse and Browns cant compare to anything on the Bells as far as I'm concerned.