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Rap method seems unsafe

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Rap method seems unsafe

Postby aemter » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:04 pm

Is this rap method actually legit? Any of you soldiers know if this method is taught?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ndguard/4703334618
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Postby The Chief » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:08 pm

YUP... looks like a Single Twist Rap to me. Universally taught to all DOD Combat folks for quick insertion. The locker he is using is a steel locker biner and the gate should be (is in fact) facing towards the individual per current DOD Rappelling Op SOP.

This is used for "fast" combat insertions from helos, buildings etc.
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Postby Buz Groshong » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:24 pm

Out of curiosity, what is he using for a harness?
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Postby MoapaPk » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:34 pm

I've looked for illustrations of this method on the web; the SOPs that I've found are just brief text articles and lists of rules (mainly proscriptions). I see several books available on military rappelling techniques, but have yet to find a free source with illustrations... so if guys find one, post!
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Postby aemter » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:43 pm

The Chief wrote:The locker he is using is a steel locker biner


Chief, what I see is not a locker, but a run of the mill oval biner. Might be steel, but I don't see any locking mechanism. **Check out this larger size to zoom on the setup. http://www.flickr.com/photos/ndguard/4703334618/sizes/o/
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Postby welle » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:43 pm

Buz Groshong wrote:Out of curiosity, what is he using for a harness?


swiss seat: http://www.modernforces.com/article_swiss_seat.htm
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Postby The Chief » Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:44 pm

Buz Groshong wrote:Out of curiosity, what is he using for a harness?


A "Swiss Seat". Standard basic harness taught to all Combat DOD Personnel.

Yeah, sometimes a non-locker standard DOD steel biner will be employed for this scenario. Has been the basic technique since way back to the WWII training days of the Mountain Division in Colorado and West Virginia.
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Postby Augie Medina » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:04 pm

aemter wrote:
The Chief wrote:The locker he is using is a steel locker biner


Chief, what I see is not a locker, but a run of the mill oval biner. Might be steel, but I don't see any locking mechanism. **Check out this larger size to zoom on the setup. http://www.flickr.com/photos/ndguard/4703334618/sizes/o/


Definitely not a locker. On the way down, better not take your eyes off the rope in relation to the gate in case the rope starts to creep! The rigging looks most like what they call a Carabiner Wrap in the civilian world. But there looks to be plenty of friction in the set-up: two strands of 10mm+ (?) rope going thru the device.
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Postby aemter » Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:25 pm

Thanks for the info, Chief. I'm just curious, why wouldn't you use a Munter? Seems like it would be easier to achieve friction. Or maybe that's the exact reason why they don't use it - they don't want that much friction and instead need speed?

Seems pretty risky doing any of this without a locker. But I'm just a soldier supporter, not the real deal! :)
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Postby MoapaPk » Tue Jun 15, 2010 11:24 pm

aemter wrote:Thanks for the info, Chief. I'm just curious, why wouldn't you use a Munter?


I thought the same thing, but I'm guessing this method twists the rope less, and is "faster" (not always a good thing). Munter puts a lot of twist in the rope for the next person, and makes pulling the rope a bit harder.
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Postby The Chief » Wed Jun 16, 2010 12:39 am

MoapaPk wrote:
aemter wrote:Thanks for the info, Chief. I'm just curious, why wouldn't you use a Munter?


I thought the same thing, but I'm guessing this method twists the rope less, and is "faster" (not always a good thing). Munter puts a lot of twist in the rope for the next person, and makes pulling the rope a bit harder.


Exactly!

Remember, this is for fast insertion out of a helo. The other method that is used is called FAST ROPING. Basically you just slide down a 1.75" rope like a fireman's pole which is attached to the helo.
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Postby MoapaPk » Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:56 am

Holy sh*t those are thick ropes...
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Postby brokesomeribs » Thu Jun 17, 2010 6:56 am

MoapaPk wrote:Holy sh*t those are thick ropes...


Yup... you just grab on with a pair of Kevlar gloves and let gravity take over. The gloves last 1-3 rappels. It's mostly Special Ops guys who are doing it, you don't really see it anywhere else.
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Postby Sierra Ledge Rat » Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:33 pm

The Chief wrote:A "Swiss Seat". Standard basic harness taught to all Combat DOD Personnel.

Yeah, sometimes a non-locker standard DOD steel biner will be employed for this scenario. Has been the basic technique since way back to the WWII training days of the Mountain Division in Colorado and West Virginia.


Yeah, that's the method I was taught. It is dangerous, but soldiers are expendable!

brokesomeribs wrote:
MoapaPk wrote:Holy sh*t those are thick ropes...


Yup... you just grab on with a pair of Kevlar gloves and let gravity take over. The gloves last 1-3 rappels. It's mostly Special Ops guys who are doing it, you don't really see it anywhere else.


If I recall, didn't the fiasco in Somalia start because a special ops guy fell and was badly injured during an insertion such as this?
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