mconnell wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:
Proving experience and training is not difficult. There are certs for training, or at least letters of attendance. For experience, I have carried a GPS on nearly every peak I have climbed. Why do I do this, so I have a recorded track of the climb. Between my track records, whitnesses, and dated photos, experience can be proven. I also keep a climbing log of all climbs even small hiked summits.

I'm not sure so much the gear has to be proven, it's the total disregard for safety and not having essential items. Standing on a 14,400 foot peak with nothing but running clothes and then getting hurt or stranded due to the fact you are in nothing but running clothes would be negligent on your part. This would not be hard to prove at all. A reasonable person in the same situation would not do that. The guy that fell in running clothes, fell because he had no traction. It even stated he was using his hands to try and dig into the snow to self arrest. Crampons and an ice axe would have likely prevented this incident.

I can download a set of waypoints for anywhere I want and claim I recorded it on my own GPS. As for "certificates", do I get to print my own since I am mostly self taught or taught by friends?

And I strongly disagree that your running clothes scenario proves negligence. That is your opinion of what is reasonable. On average, several hundred people a day climb a 14,100' peak in running clothes within a couple miles of me. I guess if one of them slips on gravel and twists their ankle, they are being negligent? A "reasonable" person would have stayed home and sat on the couch. Some would say that anything else is unreasonable.

I think your missing the point on the proving experience aspect. These are just options for proving it. Persons who know you, track logs, climbing logs, certs, and whatever else help to prove experience. If you were hauled into court, these would be used. This site and everything on it, as well as this forum could be called to court. Pictures taken, with me standing on every summit I have ever been on would be called into court. So yes, everything can be used to prove experience. My gear could also be called into court. I have had to prove training and experience many times in my carrier field. It isn't rocket science.

Again, grasping for straws here. I can climb a 14,000 foot peak in running shoes if I choose. Just because a peak is 14,000 peak doesn't make it difficult. Mount Shasta is not a mountain you climb, caked in ice, in running shoes!!! A normal person under the same circumstances within the climbing community would not have done this, this is reckless!! UFSS climbing rangers, SAR personel, the local Sheriff, and climbing proffessionals in that area would also say this was not adequate gear. Common sense says you don't do something so foolish. A 14,000 peak in Utah is not the same as a 14,000 peak sitting near the Gulf of Alaska. A change in windflow can turn into a massive, localized storm on Shasta. Go on the internet and look up Lenticular Clouds on Shasta. This is a common occurance. This guy may have been able to make it up and back down in his running outfit, but had a lenticular set up he may have died from exposure. So basically he is going up there with the idea that if things get tough, then I will just call for help.

MikeTX wrote:that was harsh.

C'mon Mike! I put a smiley face on it. That means I can say whatever I want right?
You know I'm about as pissed about your beach's new fangled properties as anyone in CA could be...

Bombchaser wrote:Persons who know you, track logs, climbing logs, certs, and whatever else help to prove experience. If you were hauled into court, these would be used. This site and everything on it, as well as this forum could be called to court. Pictures taken, with me standing on every summit I have ever been on would be called into court. So yes, everything can be used to prove experience. My gear could also be called into court. I have had to prove training and experience many times in my carrier field. It isn't rocket science.

Dude, you are paraniod.

Keep those guns handy.

Vitaliy M wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:

mconnell wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:
Proving experience and training is not difficult. There are certs for training, or at least letters of attendance. For experience, I have carried a GPS on nearly every peak I have climbed. Why do I do this, so I have a recorded track of the climb. Between my track records, whitnesses, and dated photos, experience can be proven. I also keep a climbing log of all climbs even small hiked summits.

I'm not sure so much the gear has to be proven, it's the total disregard for safety and not having essential items. Standing on a 14,400 foot peak with nothing but running clothes and then getting hurt or stranded due to the fact you are in nothing but running clothes would be negligent on your part. This would not be hard to prove at all. A reasonable person in the same situation would not do that. The guy that fell in running clothes, fell because he had no traction. It even stated he was using his hands to try and dig into the snow to self arrest. Crampons and an ice axe would have likely prevented this incident.

I can download a set of waypoints for anywhere I want and claim I recorded it on my own GPS. As for "certificates", do I get to print my own since I am mostly self taught or taught by friends?

And I strongly disagree that your running clothes scenario proves negligence. That is your opinion of what is reasonable. On average, several hundred people a day climb a 14,100' peak in running clothes within a couple miles of me. I guess if one of them slips on gravel and twists their ankle, they are being negligent? A "reasonable" person would have stayed home and sat on the couch. Some would say that anything else is unreasonable.

I think your missing the point on the proving experience aspect. These are just options for proving it. Persons who know you, track logs, climbing logs, certs, and whatever else help to prove experience. If you were hauled into court, these would be used. This site and everything on it, as well as this forum could be called to court. Pictures taken, with me standing on every summit I have ever been on would be called into court. So yes, everything can be used to prove experience. My gear could also be called into court. I have had to prove training and experience many times in my carrier field. It isn't rocket science.

Again, grasping for straws here. I can climb a 14,000 foot peak in running shoes if I choose. Just because a peak is 14,000 peak doesn't make it difficult. Mount Shasta is not a mountain you climb, caked in ice, in running shoes!!! A normal person under the same circumstances within the climbing community would not have done this, this is reckless!! UFSS climbing rangers, SAR personel, the local Sheriff, and climbing proffessionals in that area would also say this was not adequate gear. Common sense says you don't do something so foolish. A 14,000 peak in Utah is not the same as a 14,000 peak sitting near the Gulf of Alaska. A change in windflow can turn into a massive, localized storm on Shasta. Go on the internet and look up Lenticular Clouds on Shasta. This is a common occurance. This guy may have been able to make it up and back down in his running outfit, but had a lenticular set up he may have died from exposure. So basically he is going up there with the idea that if things get tough, then I will just call for help.

Can't agree with you more on almost everything you say. This guy was a walking accident waiting to happen etc.
But I have a question on lenticular clouds. I believed they are a sign of comming storm, right? You said if one set he "may have died from exposire." Are they radioactive or something? How could someone die from exposure to a cloud?

A lenticular cloud is a warning of a coming cold front, escpecially if high clouds are increasing. However they can also form from changes in the jet stream or wind direction at high altitude. Lenticular clouds can lower onto the top of large mountains producing localized severe weather. I have had first hand experience of this. I had a lenticular form out of a perfectly sunny day. The windchill hit -35, 60+ mph winds, whiteout conditions from blowing ice and snow. This lasted for about two hours. I was wearing 6 layers of clothes, heavy mitts, and mountaineering boots. Had I left this gear and went up in light clothes I may have died. I later saw that this was produced by a cold front moving into Canada. After the lenticular dissapated it returned to sunny weather. I was caught in the lenticular at the 13,000+ foot summit. The mountain was also covered in snow and ice. Having the clothes, ability to navigate, and saftey gear kept me from ruining my trip.

mrchad9 wrote:

MikeTX wrote:that was harsh.

C'mon Mike! I put a smiley face on it. That means I can say whatever I want right?
You know I'm about as pissed about your beach's new fangled properties as anyone in CA could be...

Bombchaser wrote:Persons who know you, track logs, climbing logs, certs, and whatever else help to prove experience. If you were hauled into court, these would be used. This site and everything on it, as well as this forum could be called to court. Pictures taken, with me standing on every summit I have ever been on would be called into court. So yes, everything can be used to prove experience. My gear could also be called into court. I have had to prove training and experience many times in my carrier field. It isn't rocket science.

Dude, you are paraniod.

Keep those guns handy.

Paranoid is a stupid thing to say. I don't do all of this because I'm worried about being hauled into court. I do it for my personal benefit. I only responded to what would be needed to prove experience. So lets not qoute one liners in a conversation so you can dumb down what is being said. I guess it all depends on your way of thinking. Having been in the military, law enforcement, and government, I guess I just have become highly orgnaized, prepared, and proffessional. I guess if this is being called a bad thing on here, and the running up a mountain in running shoes is being looked at as a good thing, then I don't even know what to say to that. It seems like you come on here advocating doing the right thing it is actaully the bad appraoch and the more reckless way of doing thing is the right approach. Did I get this right? And yes, I always have my guns handy.

Vitaliy M wrote:

John Duffield wrote:Well, sometimes I could be that couple.

At least once a year, I like to take at least one long meaningless hike in my ice boots for example. People flip when they see it. You can imagine the way they tell their friends. "There was an asshole on the trail wearing Ski Boots".

I get into situations where I have to dump all the gear at BC or even the last hotel except for my "Summit Shot" stuff. So maybe the first few days I am waaay over dressed. So I like to take long hikes wearing Camp 3 level gear just for practice.

I wore my mountaineering boots to a hike as well to try them out. I am sure other people understand that we are just "trying out" gear before we actually use it on a climb.

I do exactly the same, because the place to first try out your gear is not in the situation wear your will be needing it only to find it doesn't work.

WOW!

Interesting to see where and how this thread is going.

The Chief wrote:WOW!

Interesting to see where and how this thread is going.

You know I have been on the other side of this issue. Now I'm getting beat up for taking this side. But it's the attitude on of some and the actions of others that has really swayed my opinion. Eleven or so rescues in the past two weeks on Shasta is rediculous.

Here is the Shasta climbing advisory which was issued one day prior to Mr. Tennis shoes attempted ascent. Someone on here please explain to me why anyone would attempt this in running clothes??? I just checked a current picture of Shasta and it is completly covered in snow down to treeline.

http://www.shastaavalanche.org/advisori ... g-advisory

Nice to see someone else on here agrees Vitaliy M. (I was looking at your pictures from climbing Casaval Ridge. Now imagine Mr. Tennis shoes slipping, falling, and taking out your entire team! Negligence? I would say so. Grounds for law suit? I would say so. Would a court take it, possibly. Could someone be held criminally negligent, possibly. Besides this, I would feel pretty bad if I did something so reckless and caused the death of others.) Looks like you had a nice climb. I had to turn back on that route because of a gear issue and the unexpected 100 mph winds that came in!!!!

Bombchaser wrote:A lenticular cloud is a warning of a coming cold front, escpecially if high clouds are increasing. However they can also form from changes in the jet stream or wind direction at high altitude. Lenticular clouds can lower onto the top of large mountains producing localized severe weather. I have had first hand experience of this. I had a lenticular form out of a perfectly sunny day. The windchill hit -35, 60+ mph winds, whiteout conditions from blowing ice and snow. This lasted for about two hours. I was wearing 6 layers of clothes, heavy mitts, and mountaineering boots. Had I left this gear and went up in light clothes I may have died. I later saw that this was produced by a cold front moving into Canada. After the lenticular dissapated it returned to sunny weather. I was caught in the lenticular at the 13,000+ foot summit. The mountain was also covered in snow and ice. Having the clothes, ability to navigate, and saftey gear kept me from ruining my trip.

So you didn’t go down after seeing the lenticular cloud but chose instead to wait it out?

Bombchaser wrote:

The Chief wrote:WOW!

Interesting to see where and how this thread is going.

You know I have been on the other side of this issue. Now I'm getting beat up for taking this side. But it's the attitude on of some and the actions of others that has really swayed my opinion. Eleven or so rescues in the past two weeks on Shasta is rediculous.

Oh my, now maybe ya know where I have stood on this for as long as I have been at it. And that is a long ass time.

You should of seen and heard what I observed just last week in the Gorge... unfkingbelievable.

Oh well, it is only gonna get worse as more access them hills and go out to do the deal because it's "Cool".

kevin trieu wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:A lenticular cloud is a warning of a coming cold front, escpecially if high clouds are increasing. However they can also form from changes in the jet stream or wind direction at high altitude. Lenticular clouds can lower onto the top of large mountains producing localized severe weather. I have had first hand experience of this. I had a lenticular form out of a perfectly sunny day. The windchill hit -35, 60+ mph winds, whiteout conditions from blowing ice and snow. This lasted for about two hours. I was wearing 6 layers of clothes, heavy mitts, and mountaineering boots. Had I left this gear and went up in light clothes I may have died. I later saw that this was produced by a cold front moving into Canada. After the lenticular dissapated it returned to sunny weather. I was caught in the lenticular at the 13,000+ foot summit. The mountain was also covered in snow and ice. Having the clothes, ability to navigate, and saftey gear kept me from ruining my trip.

So you didn’t go down after seeing the lenticular cloud but chose instead to wait it out?

In my case, based on my experience, I made the decision to continue. I was at about 12,000 or so when it started forming. I had looked at weather models before I left and had a good idea of where things were at. I had all of the proper gear and was not on a highly technical route. So based on my experience level, and knowledge I made the decision to continue. I had a good idea this was a localized event since it was forming from the summit outward. Now if I had been at my car, and looked up and seen this, I would have likely discontinued my attempt.

Bombchaser wrote:

kevin trieu wrote:

Bombchaser wrote:A lenticular cloud is a warning of a coming cold front, escpecially if high clouds are increasing. However they can also form from changes in the jet stream or wind direction at high altitude. Lenticular clouds can lower onto the top of large mountains producing localized severe weather. I have had first hand experience of this. I had a lenticular form out of a perfectly sunny day. The windchill hit -35, 60+ mph winds, whiteout conditions from blowing ice and snow. This lasted for about two hours. I was wearing 6 layers of clothes, heavy mitts, and mountaineering boots. Had I left this gear and went up in light clothes I may have died. I later saw that this was produced by a cold front moving into Canada. After the lenticular dissapated it returned to sunny weather. I was caught in the lenticular at the 13,000+ foot summit. The mountain was also covered in snow and ice. Having the clothes, ability to navigate, and saftey gear kept me from ruining my trip.

So you didn’t go down after seeing the lenticular cloud but chose instead to wait it out?

In my case, based on my experience, I made the decision to continue. I was at about 12,000 or so when it started forming. I had looked at weather models before I left and had a good idea of where things were at. I had all of the proper gear and was not on a highly technical route. So based on my experience level, and knowledge I made the decision to continue. I had a good idea this was a localized event since it was forming from the summit outward. Now if I had been at my car, and looked up and seen this, I would have likely discontinued my attempt.

1. Your experience told you to continue higher into forming lentucular clouds?
2. What weather models were you looking at? Did the models tell that the storm was going to last for only two hours?
3. So you continued because the stakes were higher and you were closer to the summit. What's the difference between the decision to continue whether you are at the car or 200 feet from the summit? Shouldn't it be the same?

Apparently, Shasta is located in the Magical Land of the Freedom of the Hills, where no one is responsible for what they do. Snow too slushy and you are getting chilly? No problemo, just call in the chopper for a ride home (no charge to you of course). Took a fall in your tennis shoes and injured someone as you hurtled down the ice field? No problemo, not your responsibility 'cuz we don't want to pass judgment on you (and besides, who would be the judge?). Trapped in a crevasse 'cuz you were just out for a stroll and didn't know they existed (and have no gear to save youself)? No problemo, we'll send in the SAR's to help you out -- at the SAR's expense and risk of course.

Ah, the magical land of the freedom of the hills -- check your accountability at the door and breathe free.

Bombchaser wrote:Paranoid is a stupid thing to say. I don't do all of this because I'm worried about being hauled into court. I do it for my personal benefit. I only responded to what would be needed to prove experience. So lets not qoute one liners in a conversation so you can dumb down what is being said. I guess it all depends on your way of thinking. Having been in the military, law enforcement, and government, I guess I just have become highly orgnaized, prepared, and proffessional. I guess if this is being called a bad thing on here, and the running up a mountain in running shoes is being looked at as a good thing, then I don't even know what to say to that. It seems like you come on here advocating doing the right thing it is actaully the bad appraoch and the more reckless way of doing thing is the right approach. Did I get this right? And yes, I always have my guns handy.

My apologies if you are not paranoid. I was not trying to be critical of the things you do, keeping records and such, nothing wrong with being organized and I do some of those things myself (not the GPS tracks, but have a few friends that do to same as you). It just appeared to me that you were indicating you might have legal reasons you are doing them, not just for fun, that you thought you would need them for court or something. I don't know how I got that impression...

Bombchaser wrote:...to prove experience...If you were hauled into court...could be called to court...would be called into court...to prove experience...called into court...

Vitaliy M wrote:To be honest I think that ice axe is more of a weapon (most will do more damage than good) in hands of majority in Avalanche Gulch, than something that will help self arrest. Majority up there are people that rent all the crap and hope they will not fall. When some do fall we hear about rescues up there, when they don't they put up "I am a great mountaineer" photo on their Facebook. W/e every1 is free to do as they wish, but I would like to encourage people to be wiser, train with their gear, know how to use it, and at least have the minimum needed to survive.

+1. Absolutely true, and excellent last post/story by DMT too. What gear you have doesn't mean anything, thus my disdain for any kind of requirement or lack of desire for regulation along those lines.

No one here has supported this idiot who fell down Shasta. And the mountain is full of them, as the recent events show. I've only done AG twice, but both times kept well clear of people above me, assuming they were just like most. But they have a right to be there.

Perhaps if the CHP and Siskiyou County would stop this frivolous use of helicopters then some of these people would be under the impression they have to take some personal responsibility. Using one to haul down two women because the snow was deep is beyond stupid. If they did anything they could have flown over and dropped a pile of blankets, sleeping bags, and snowshoes on them and told them to walk out themselves. It is the continued use of these toys in unnecessary situations that encourages inexperienced people to take these risks, so assign some of the blame where it belongs.