I agree with what you say there chief. You're talking about the Rescue Entitlement.

Sure the two soft snow women are easy targets, but so too are the numbers of experienced Yosemite big wall climbers who head up routes as known storms approach... knowing that if shit hits the fan a rescue is quite likely.

In other words, folks have learned from the Big Boys.

And its that attitude I don't quite get - a wall team gets nailed by a storm and needs rescue? THat wall team was unprepared, there is no other way to cut it. They don't get to 'blame mother nature' for their own mistakes any more than the shorts and tennis shoes guy does.

And yet they do.... get to blame mother nature, science, random chance and a host of other excuses for why they failed to take care of themselves.

The need for a rescue short circuits the entire 'were they prepared' discussion.

Leader takes a short fall and breaks a leg? Been there, done that, I fell because I was NOT PREPARED.

Frankly I don't see any problem at all with handing each and every rescued person a bill for the rescue services. The argument that 'some won't call until its too late' doesn't really move me.

But then again I am ok if my fellow citizens want to foot the bill. However, I am of the opinion that the contraction of governmental services in the US will continue for some years to come. Increasingly budgets are going to be trimmed, services examined.

To point - an article in the local paper today about local fire departments now billing those who cause accidents for their on-scene services. Not billing for ambulance services, but the actual accident site services - $400 for a Pumper truck, $25 to put traffic cones out.

Seriously.

I think in the very near future the CHP and the military units that form the core of California rescue chopper services will be directed to start billing for those services.

When that happens, we all will begin the scramble for rescue insurance.

Its coming. Singling out the Mr Tennis Shoes will only hasten this eventuality, imo.

DMT

The Chief wrote:The people aren't taking any chances. They simply call 911 instead when shit starts squirting in their face.....MOMMY, HELP ME! They refuse to even take a chance to work through the problem. They expect someone to come and solve it for them as exemplified by the recent incident with the two women.

That's exactly right, and one of the reasons they do that is we don't have a capable person who is making a decision on if an evacuation is really necessary, so all these climbing gym folks get the thrill of an evacuation on top of not having to depend on themselves. For them its win-win and the frivolous rescues only encourage it.

Still believe the public should pay for the rescue, but that being the case then the public should also be making the call on if a rescue will occur. If the recommendation is that a rescue is not necessary, and those making the call for help still want it, then they should certainly be billed for their sloth and incompetence.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:$25 to put traffic cones out.

That is hilarious! But more a function of an inept state government grasping for additional revenues than looking to create a sense of personal accountability, not that you said otherwise.

Vitaliy M wrote:Yes, but there is ALWAYS SOME risk present. For example, there is always the risk of some snow bridge between two rocks collapsing and climber breaks a leg as a result. There are however things we can control and things we know about and can't control.
I am against these certifications and permissions, I think system we have now is not perfect, but it is a lot better than going to court to prove you have enough experience with your summit shots lol. All people have the right to go out and risk their life as they wish. It is up to SAR if it is safe or not to rescue them. Majority of people are not suicidal after all.

Good post, if only SAR would add to their umbrella of decision making authority to decide if it is necessary as well... The system might still not be perfect, but would be better.

This thread makes me happier than ever that I don't give a rat's ass about climbing these trophy peaks that attract so many accidents and controversies.

Bob Sihler wrote:This thread makes me happier than ever that I don't give a rat's ass about climbing these trophy peaks that attract so many accidents and controversies.

Then you aren't a real man.

Vitaliy M wrote:

Bob Sihler wrote:This thread makes me happier than ever that I don't give a rat's ass about climbing these trophy peaks that attract so many accidents and controversies.

I wouldn't call Shasta a "trophy" peak. I think (personally) that it is one of the best CA 14ers to practice mountaineering on. You can have your steep snow, glacier travel, beautiful ridge routes, ice climbing. It does not have great technical rock climbing since it is loose volcanic rock, but it is a great mountain to explore.
For some however it is a trophy peak I guess...they just want to get to the top and tell their friends about it...Can't blame them though, for most regular people it is a huge adventure, even on AG.

The first time I climbed it (2003) I was pretty excited, so I can see how folks would consider it as a trophy objective. It's a great peak too. Then again I did it with crampons, practiced using an ice ax in Lassen before I went, turned around on my first attempt because of a solid whiteout, hadn't been in a climbing gym, and didn't get a helicopter ride down. Guess I did it the pussy way.

Vitaliy M wrote:

Bob Sihler wrote:This thread makes me happier than ever that I don't give a rat's ass about climbing these trophy peaks that attract so many accidents and controversies.

I wouldn't call Shasta a "trophy" peak. I think (personally) that it is one of the best CA 14ers to practice mountaineering on. You can have your steep snow, glacier travel, beautiful ridge routes, ice climbing. It does not have great technical rock climbing since it is loose volcanic rock, but it is a great mountain to explore.
For some however it is a trophy peak I guess...they just want to get to the top and tell their friends about it...Can't blame them though, for most regular people it is a huge adventure, even on AG.

I should explain what I mean by a trophy peak, since that can be subjective. To me, a trophy peak is one that generates endless trip reports and pictures and "advice" threads on SP. (Yawn.) It is one that is on lots of people's lists. It can be technical or a hike. Thus, for me, trophy peaks include Rainier, Hood, Shasta, Whitney, and the Grand Teton.

There is wonderful climbing of all stripes on many "lesser" and obscure peaks. Those are the peaks I love, for there is a sense of wilderness, adventure, and discovery on them.

Fortunately, I am leaving tonight to spend three weeks in the exact kinds of mountains I love.

What does this thread have to do with illegal immigrants?

MoapaPk wrote:What does this thread have to do with illegal immigrants?

We're trying to decide if an illegal immigrant who climbs Shasta and gets in trouble gets a taxpayer-funded rescue.

I think we need Judge Judy like character to determine negligence with these rescues

I was hiking out from the White Mountain area north of Tioga Pass Saturday... The snow was heavily suncupped, very soft, and generally a bit more than exhausting after a long day.

As sunset approached I couldn't help but to think that this wasn't quite right. If only I'd had some means of calling for help so I could be airlifted out I would have, and then I wouldn't have to rush to make it to the Whoa Nellie Deli before closing.

Dingus,

I think your right on target. Nice rant.

g

Ze wrote:I think we need Judge Judy like character to determine negligence with these rescues

Doesn't the ole saying go, "you'll be judged by a body of your peers"? How about those with the experience be the jury? With all rescues, SAR will defer to those on SP (with the proper qualifications) and the verdict may be deal or no deal.

mrchad9 wrote:I was hiking out from the White Mountain area north of Tioga Pass Saturday...

Ahh, what White Mtn area north of TP?

The only White Mtn area anywhere near TP is a good 40+ miles due east on 120 past Benton or 60+ miles southwest down 395 past Big Pine and then up 168.

I live smack dab right in between the two actually and can see them both from my back door.