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Scots Team

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Scots Team

Postby Proterra » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:45 pm

Last week there was a discussion going on about getting the amount of exposure of Scottish hills up here on SP. I'm personally much in favour of keeping this going, so I figured it might me a good idea to start a sort of "central thread" for everything related to Scottish hills.

Original discussion on Taxonomy Planning

As of today, we have 4 Area's and Ranges, 51 Mountains and Rocks, of which 35 Munro's and 1 that should be a A&R page instead of a M&R in my personal opinion (Cuillin Ridge), 1 Hut and Campground (Kingshouse), 1 Logistical Centre (Fort William), 3.5 list (Munros, Murdos, Corbetts and the Nat'l parks page which takes in all of Europe, of which Lolli recently transferred complete ownership to me) In addition to this, there are also 61 various routes onto various hills described here in great detail on SP.

In my opinion, to make stuff more navigable to the general public; the ideal system would be something similar to this:

Area and Range (Upper level)---------------*************
*********|*************************|*************
*********|*************************|*************
*********|*************************|*************
Area and Range (Lower level)--------Logistical Centre*****
*********|*******|*******\*****/******************
*********|*******|********\***/*******************
*********|*******|*********\*/********************
Mountain or Rock ---|-----------------Hut and Campground**
*********|*******|*******************************
*********|****Trip Report**************************
*********|***************************************
*******Route*************************************

| = Child/Parent
/ , \ or -- Related

Another thing we might want to discuss, concerning Boydie's introduction of Huts and Campgrounds to Scotland is to which extent we want to include bothies in this list. I know the MBA is not very keen on making lists of bothies complete with grid references available to the general public, and most hillwalkers know their location anyway. Personally, I think we should side with the MBA on this, because they are the ones maintaining them and keeping them available for our use, and I would not like to see bothies disappearing because of abuse or vandalism which could be derived straight from a detailed page here on SP. On the other hand, I don't see your average Paisley ned surfing SP to find out which would be the next good highland bothy to trash out. In the past, I have given out undetailed information, such as names (Staoineag, Camasunary, Ryvoan) and general location such as "2 hours out from Corrour" on the message board or on pages, and the more detailed stuff only in PM's.

What do all of you think?
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Postby Nanuls » Fri Oct 31, 2008 3:24 pm

I have a few thoughts, and they're much the same as I expressed on the previous thread.

Taxonomy
I like the taxonomy idea, it would be a lot of work though, especially with the higher tier areas. It would probably be best achieved as some sort of collaborative effort, with a page set up as a Custom Object which everyone has editing rights to, then finally when it's finished it could be uploaded as a proper area/range page. I think such a page would have to be managed properly though, you don't want everyone ending up writing the same sections.

Bothies
personally I wouldn't bother writing pages for bothies unless they are already well known and well used. The Corrour Bothy in the Cairngorms comes to mind.

Logistical Centres
Since the planning system tends to use a hierarchy approach to development in settlements, shops and services tend to be centralised in one location, normally a town with a large enough population to adequately carry them. Therefore, the UK's Logistical Centre pages are probably best used to describe these towns or locations, like your Fort William page for instance (congrats on finally finishing it!).
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Postby Proterra » Fri Oct 31, 2008 5:03 pm

Nanuls wrote:I have a few thoughts, and they're much the same as I expressed on the previous thread.

Taxonomy
I like the taxonomy idea, it would be a lot of work though, especially with the higher tier areas. It would probably be best achieved as some sort of collaborative effort, with a page set up as a Custom Object which everyone has editing rights to, then finally when it's finished it could be uploaded as a proper area/range page. I think such a page would have to be managed properly though, you don't want everyone ending up writing the same sections.


Agreed. I don't think that the upper tier areas would be an excessive amount of work though, because you don't need to use that much detail there. That's where the lower tier areas and mountain pages are for. On the other hand, it would require constant updating because pages get added all the time, we need to keep the links working, and not everyone is available all the time. Simply because of the ever changing nature it would be undoable by one person. Also, not everyone has enough knowledge about an area to write a hillwalking section about it. I, for example know very little about much of the area between the WHL and Drumochter, as well as Argyll and the Angus Glens.

I've made a short outline about what I would personally think to be necessary information on these pages:

Outline Grampians - Have given editing rights to Nanuls and Boydie if any of you think I'm off and want to illustrate that

Nanuls wrote:Bothies
personally I wouldn't bother writing pages for bothies unless they are already well known and well used. The Corrour Bothy in the Cairngorms comes to mind.


And so is Hutchison Memorial Hut, or the one by Loch Muick. (But the latter is maintained by the queen so I don't think the MBA cares) I still don't think that it would be an excellent idea to make pages about them, but the ones heavily known and used could definitely be included in the A&R pages or on mountain pages as a separate subsection (so that they don't show up straight away in searches, but would if someone is interested in a particular area)

Nanuls wrote:Logistical Centres
Since the planning system tends to use a hierarchy approach to development in settlements, shops and services tend to be centralised in one location, normally a town with a large enough population to adequately carry them. Therefore, the UK's Logistical Centre pages are probably best used to describe these towns or locations, like your Fort William page for instance (congrats on finally finishing it!).


My thoughts exactly. Europe is a much more developed and inhabited place than the USA, and an LC in America would likely either qualify as an area or a hut/campground here.
For example; right now we're having the same discussion about the Grampians as the Americans recently had about the Cascades. If you look at a map, you could clearly see that the Cascades dwarf the Alps, while from the American POV, the Cairngorms would likely to be considered a LC...
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Postby visentin » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:49 pm

I'm not a scot but I'll join with pleasure !
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Postby visentin » Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:52 pm

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Postby Boydie » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:05 pm

Firstly, well done for finishing the Fort William page Clint. :D

The point on the system of navigation for SP users is perfect, seems logical to list it this way.

On the subject of Bothies, they should be left alone as you and Dan are both saying, with the exception of the ones that are extremely well known. The thought of meeting a ned in one of these places is very off putting, although the ones in Glasgow do tend to wear Berghaus and North Face jackets, so would they look out of place??? Yes. If these things cost half the price would they wear them? Amazing what you can buy on the Social nowadays. Can't say I've ever seen anyone on a summit with a Burberry cap! Not yet anyway.

Clint, I take it that the following is happening; The Western Grampians is left of a line running from Glen Spean/Loch Trieg downwards along the A82 through Tyndrum until reaching roughly Dumbarton?

The Eastern Grampians is right of a line running down the A9 from Inverness to Perth and then down the M90 to Edinburgh?

Everything in between is the Central Grampians?

All of the above seems good and easily achievable if we figure out who is doing what. The eastern section might be a bit out of my depth at the moment as I haven't frequented that area much, although I was in Drumochter a couple of weeks ago and am going to the Cairnwell this weekend. Still don't think that would give me enough background to give these areas justice though. This is a minor detail though that we can all iron out once we are all happy with the concept.

Someone that might be worthwhile including in this or consulting, for a couple of reasons is <a href=http://www.summitpost.org/user_page.php?user_id=18279>Dan Bailey</a>. Dan has contributed to SP and has also done some books for Cicerone. He is, unfortunately, not active very often, but would maybe be willing to help on this subject. I don't mind PMing him on the subject. We could also mention the fact that we (I agree Clint) should consider changing the Cuillin ridge to an A&R page instead of a Mountain page. I think this was one of the early SP pages, hence the incorrect listing. Could be called Island of Skye instead???

Stephen
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Postby Proterra » Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:21 pm

visentin wrote:I'm not a scot but I'll join with pleasure !


Neither am I, and neither is Nanuls. Even Dan Bailey is originally from south of the Borders. This is all about first-hand knowledge of the hills and the ability to convey that knowledge into something useful for the hillwalking/climbing community, not about what your travel documents state. (Although a fair bit of love for the natural beauty of the country surely does help)

Besides that, you're already helping by posting A&R's, hills, and other objects to the site, and help from anyone is always useful.



Boydie wrote:Clint, I take it that the following is happening; The Western Grampians is left of a line running from Glen Spean/Loch Trieg downwards along the A82 through Tyndrum until reaching roughly Dumbarton?

The Eastern Grampians is right of a line running down the A9 from Inverness to Perth and then down the M90 to Edinburgh?

Everything in between is the Central Grampians?


I'd say, forget Dumbarton and Edinburgh. Let's put the Campsie Fells, Ochills and Lomond Hills of Fife in Southern Scotland, and define "Grampians" simply as everything between the HBF and GGF on the mainland, and don't go further south than Helensburgh and Perth.

East = east of the R. Tay to Pitlochry, and rail line further up to Inverness. (the railways usually follow the path with the lowest gradient anyway, in my opinion it seems logical)

West = west of Glen Spean, Loch Treig, rail line to Tarbet, and down Loch Lomond.

Centre is pretty much everything inbetween, from Ben Lomond to the Monadhliaths.

Boydie wrote:All of the above seems good and easily achievable if we figure out who is doing what. The eastern section might be a bit out of my depth at the moment as I haven't frequented that area much, although I was in Drumochter a couple of weeks ago and am going to the Cairnwell this weekend. Still don't think that would give me enough background to give these areas justice though. This is a minor detail though that we can all iron out once we are all happy with the concept.


The beauty of this system is that the "upper-tier" regions are a sort of "frame" to attach the more detailed stuff into. I'd reckon that some general knowledge and maybe a wee bit more specific knowledge done up by a trip or two would do the trick. All the detailed information should be better left to the lower-tier areas and mountain pages. one or two lines per mountain, plus 6-20 lines per range should be enough. And if a new A&R or mountain page gets created, just update the region and fix links.

You're going to Cairnwell, were in Drumochter, and I'm familliar with the hills south of Crathie (Lochnagar) and the Monadhruadhs. (Or Cairngorms if you please :) ) That is quite a bit of eastern terrain we can start on. The big problem is going to be the central part, which is highly underrepresented here. There are no central peaks north of the Lawers range, and a lot of hills lack lat/long data. Further, the Lawers range would also be better served as a A&R than as a mountain page. Only, the maintaier seems to have taken a wee break from SP, I'll send him a PM, but it might take a while. Oh well, we'll see what happens here.

The west, on the other hand is likely to cause other problems... All of us have extensive knowledge about (especially the northern part), and all of us have written nice pages of this area. Here we probably need to make clear who's going to do what to prevent duplicate work. In my opinion, you and Nanuls should sort this, considering the extensive amount of work the two of you have already been putting into Glencoe and Ben Nevis. Excerpts from these pages could easily be transformed into sections about the Nevis Range, Glencoe, and considering your history, the Mamores as well. A big white spot here exists in the form of the Argyll hills south of the greater Glencoe area. There is Ben Cruachan, and the more accessible hills by the A82, and that's pretty much it... Maybe a fun idea for next year. Plan a few hillwalking trips to "Summitpost; White spots of Scotland..." Maybe get to feel like one of those 19th century explorers... :lol: :lol: :lol: In the meanwhile, I'll just stick to my field, and write about the climatology and geology of this area, as well as transport information and such. Having said that, this user knows a more about Glencoe geology than most other people I know.

Oh well, seems like there's enough to do. Need to go home anyway, (just woke up at a friend's place and my head feels like it's been run over by a lorrie...) Will look into it more over there. Have fun in Cairnwell.

Clint.
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Postby Boydie » Sat Nov 01, 2008 12:55 pm

Okay, the east, central and west region borders are fine.

I could cover the areas in the east you are mentioning, maybe work on an A&R for Drumochter just now. :) Added with that, I would be happy to cover Glencoe, Black Mount, Bridge of Orchy/Tyndrum and Arrochar in the west.

The Central region as you say would be a bit different, I would be okay with the lower half but, the rest is, as you say sadly lacking at the moment. Something we should remedy :lol: The Lawers page would be better suited as an A&R page as it covers 7 of the peaks in the area. Good luck with that.

If you are suggesting a field trip for next year sometime then I am up for that. Were you thinking anywhere in particular Clint? Somewhere central?
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Postby Charles » Sat Nov 01, 2008 2:13 pm

Looking forward to seeing this on the go!
thanks chaps!
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Postby kamil » Sat Nov 01, 2008 3:27 pm

Hey Clint and the pack!

Leviathan wrote:
visentin wrote:I'm not a scot but I'll join with pleasure !


Neither am I (...)

Hehe mate you sound like a mix of a Scot and a Yank :lol:

I'll read your monumental Fort William page :D and even might add some info about the Polldubh crags between Fort William and Ben Nevis. Ain't got enough info or pics (only climbed 3 or 4 wee routes there) but a short mention could be worthwile for Fort William visitors. Gotta dig up my climbing guide of Polldubh, I should have it stashed somewhere...
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Postby visentin » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:43 pm

I suggest someone makes a quick map with Paint.exe, so that we see exactly the regions you are mentioning.
I feel motivated for making the west-Grampians, that's the area I know (I "knew", but books are still there) the most, being a student at Strathclyde <a href="http://www.sportsunion.strath.ac.uk/mountaineering/home.htm">we</a> used to make a lot of 1 day trips to this area (Loch Lomond, Glen Orchy, Arrochar, Glencoe, etc)
But of course I'd give the rights to everyone in this thread :)
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Postby Proterra » Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:39 pm

kamil wrote:Hey Clint and the pack!

Leviathan wrote:
visentin wrote:I'm not a scot but I'll join with pleasure !


Neither am I (...)

Hehe mate you sound like a mix of a Scot and a Yank :lol:

I'll read your monumental Fort William page :D and even might add some info about the Polldubh crags between Fort William and Ben Nevis. Ain't got enough info or pics (only climbed 3 or 4 wee routes there) but a short mention could be worthwile for Fort William visitors. Gotta dig up my climbing guide of Polldubh, I should have it stashed somewhere...


Hey Kamil!!! Looking to join the pack???

Interesting Geography by the way, as far as I know, the Polldubh crags are at the SW of the Ben, and FW is at the NW... I suppose I could put a refer to it on the FW page, but they're probably better as route pages attached to the BN page.

Boydie wrote:If you are suggesting a field trip for next year sometime then I am up for that. Were you thinking anywhere in particular Clint? Somewhere central?


Hmmm.... North-central to be specific... Ben Alder, Càrn Dearg and Creag Meagaidh come to mind... Maybe a 5-7 day walking trip from Carrbridge to Corrour or Rannoch???

visentin wrote:I suggest someone makes a quick map with Paint.exe, so that we see exactly the regions you are mentioning.
I feel motivated for making the west-Grampians, that's the area I know (I "knew", but books are still there) the most, being a student at Strathclyde [url="http://www.sportsunion.strath.ac.uk/mountaineering/home.htm"]we[/url] used to make a lot of 1 day trips to this area (Loch Lomond, Glen Orchy, Arrochar, Glencoe, etc)
But of course I'd give the rights to everyone in this thread :)


Here you go;

Image

About the west, you really should discuss this with Stephen because that was what I meant earlier that the Northern half of the Western Grampians are already highly covered and well known by the membership here. It would seem more logical to me that the folks who have already put great time and effort into these areas should also take care of them on the Grampians page, simply because it saves a lot of time and duplicate work. Personally, I feel like leaving all of the west north of Glen Etive over to Stephen and Dan (Nanuls).
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Postby Boydie » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:29 pm

Boydie wrote:If you are suggesting a field trip for next year sometime then I am up for that. Were you thinking anywhere in particular Clint? Somewhere central?


Leviathan wrote:Hmmm.... North-central to be specific... Ben Alder, Càrn Dearg and Creag Meagaidh come to mind... Maybe a 5-7 day walking trip from Carrbridge to Corrour or Rannoch???


Funnily enough :lol: , when in Drumochter I had been discussing the possibility of doing Ben Alder in the spring with my mate. Our thoughts were for a long weekend walking in from Dalwhinnie and staying at Culra lodge. Doing Ben Alder/Beinn Bheoil on the Saturday, then doing Carn Dearg/Gael Charn/Aonach Beag/Beinn Eibhinn on the Sunday, or something along those lines. I think whatever option though would be a good idea.

visentin wrote:I feel motivated for making the west-Grampians, that's the area I know (I "knew", but books are still there) the most, being a student at Strathclyde [url="http://www.sportsunion.strath.ac.uk/mountaineering/home.htm"]we[/url] used to make a lot of 1 day trips to this area (Loch Lomond, Glen Orchy, Arrochar, Glencoe, etc)
But of course I'd give the rights to everyone in this thread :)


Leviathan wrote:Here you go;

Image

About the west, you really should discuss this with Stephen because that was what I meant earlier that the Northern half of the Western Grampians are already highly covered and well known by the membership here. It would seem more logical to me that the folks who have already put great time and effort into these areas should also take care of them on the Grampians page, simply because it saves a lot of time and duplicate work. Personally, I feel like leaving all of the west north of Glen Etive over to Stephen and Dan (Nanuls).


I think that the northern section, i.e. Nevis Range/Mamores, would be good for Dan to do as he has covered most of it already, if he is up for that. Down from that, I already have the info on SP for Glencoe, Black Mount and Arrochar and can cover this aspect. The Tyndrum/Bridge of Orchy areas I have mountain pages for to, so can elaborate on these for the benefit of the page, although I'm happy to share these areas if it benefits the page.

Eric
If you wanted, and if it is relevant to you, you could cover the Cruachan range. At the moment this is only covered with a solitary mountain page, so an A&R page would be possible to do straight away. The Loch Lomond area is also uncovered, although I have done a page for Ben Lomond. In theory I could probably attach this to Arrochar Alps range as it's just across the Loch. :?

Stephen
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Postby visentin » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:23 am

If you wanted, and if it is relevant to you, you could cover the Cruachan range. At the moment this is only covered with a solitary mountain page, so an A&R page would be possible to do straight away. The Loch Lomond area is also uncovered, although I have done a page for Ben Lomond. In theory I could probably attach this to Arrochar Alps range as it's just across the Loch. :?

Stephen


The only thing is that I also have walked the only Ben Cruachan in the area ! (or does the Ben Lui/Ben Oss range belong to it ?)
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Postby Nanuls » Sun Nov 02, 2008 12:36 pm

I've been up in Snowdonia taking advantage of some unusually early winter conditions, so I've missed much of what's been going on here and I might have missed a few things while reading this thread. So please bear with me here...

Firstly I'll tell you what I'd be happy doing -

I'm happy to write up Ben Nevis and the Mamores as Stephen suggests, also I don't mind writing a section on wildlife and conservation, producing an interactive list of peaks and sub-ranges, and writing a little bit about climbing etc (my main experience is in winter climbing but, I can add bits and pieces on other activities). Given enough time I could also produce an interactive map for the area, but don't hold me to that one it would be a big job.

With regard to a section on geology, Clint I am happy for you to write that, and I'm happy for you to copy and paste bits of the Ben Nevis page as this contains a fair bit about the Grampians. I would be interested in adding a bit about the Late Devensian glaciation and the Loch Lomond Stadial as I wrote several essays for my degree on the subject of the ice sheet in Scotland at these times. They were good ones I promise!

I think it would be a good idea to get daveyboy involved since he has written good pages on The Cairnwell, Glas Moal and Broad Cairn, and appears to know the area quite well. I'll PM him and see what he thinks.

The logistical type sections also need to be split up between us i.e. Red Tap, Getting There, Camping and Accommodation, Mountain Conditions and External Links. I would also suggest sections on guidebooks and maps, which I can add if you like. As for the External Links section, I think with a few additions, this can largely be copied from existing pages.

In response to Eric's question about the large size of the page, as an overarching page it needs to be this big, information shouldn't be too detailed, but should rather direct the reader to the lower tier pages where the detail is held. Think of it as a strategic page designed to facilitate the delivery of detailed information rather than be deliverer itself.

I think now we need to think about, what steps need to be taken next, if everyone agrees, the page that Clint has created should be turned into a Custom Object, and that this be the page we upload our work to. It needs a little extra work on its structure, but I can give that a quick look at today.
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