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Shouldn't Goretex be waterproof?

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Postby phydeux » Sat Apr 17, 2010 2:35 pm

If you're riding a bicycle, why not use fenders and a rain cape? I'd never wear Gortex pants and parka for riding in the rain. Look online and you'll find fenders for any type of bicycle you might own. And the same online store should also sell rain capes; they look something like a poncho. but have attachments points for your hands so you can spead it out and have some ventilation. A poncho also works well.
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Re: Shouldn't Goretex be waterproof?

Postby DanTheMan » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:10 pm

Diego Sahagún wrote:
DanTheMan wrote:Not having a pair of lightweight rain pants, I decided to put on OR Mentor Goretex pants to commute by bicycle in the rain. When I got to work about 15 minutes later I had a big wet spot on each knee. I don't think it was sweat, because everywhere else was dry. If the water repellent coating wears off does the Goretex lose it's waterproofness? For the price of these pants, and their intended use, I would have hoped they could keep me dry for 15 minutes in the rain.

What if you use your pants when mountaineering instead of cycling :?:

http://www.outdoorresearch.com/site/m_s ... pants.html

http://www.gore-tex.com/remote/Satellit ... /pro-shell


I bought them at a significant discount and use them for mountaineering. They are also the only "waterproof" pants that I own. I would have no problem with using mountaineering pants for commuting if they did the job. I don't want a separate pair of rain pants for the city and for the mountains if the mountain pants already do everything that I need. The pants are guaranteed for life anyways, so I have no worries about wearing them out or getting them replaced. OR has always been very good with me.

I assumed that they would stand up to a heavy downpour. They have been used significantly. I am skeptical about the perspiration theory because the wet patches were big dark blobs of wet on my knees where the most rain was hitting while the rest of my legs were dry. I would assume sweat would be heaviest at my crotch and behind my knees. I will try giving them a new water resistant coating and see if that helps.
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Postby Diego Sahagún » Sun Apr 18, 2010 12:52 am

phydeux wrote:If you're riding a bicycle, why not use fenders and a rain cape? I'd never wear Gortex pants and parka for riding in the rain. Look online and you'll find fenders for any type of bicycle you might own. And the same online store should also sell rain capes; they look something like a poncho. but have attachments points for your hands so you can spead it out and have some ventilation. A poncho also works well.

+1
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Postby rickford » Sun Apr 18, 2010 3:40 pm

liferequiresair wrote:GoreTex is a necessary evil. Seeing how it's next to impossible to find waterproof footwear without it, it does have some redeemable value. I did some product testing for GoreTex a few years ago on a NOLS course in Alaska. It is my opinion that the fabric reaches a sort of saturation point. Up to a point, it is waterproof and amazing, but after say, five days of constant rain, it's about as useful as a windbreaker. I'm saving up for an Event Jacket myself.



Anybody else prefer E-vent over Goretex?
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Postby BrunoM » Sun Apr 18, 2010 5:35 pm

Diego Sahagún wrote:
phydeux wrote:If you're riding a bicycle, why not use fenders and a rain cape? I'd never wear Gortex pants and parka for riding in the rain. Look online and you'll find fenders for any type of bicycle you might own. And the same online store should also sell rain capes; they look something like a poncho. but have attachments points for your hands so you can spead it out and have some ventilation. A poncho also works well.

+1


Riding a bike with a poncho is madness. It obstructs your movements and your hands, and if there's a strong wind (which happens sometimes when it's raining), you become a sailboat on wheels.
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Postby Bob Sihler » Sun Apr 18, 2010 7:36 pm

jdzaharia wrote:GoreTex definitely has a finite lifespan. This photo shows an example, that cannot be explained by sweat or condensation.

Image


Faulty potty training?
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Postby MoapaPk » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:11 pm

Bob Sihler wrote:Faulty potty training?


PnPnP ?
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Postby Moni » Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:19 pm

You need to care for Goretex (and all such fabrics) carefully for them to remain functional. Mainly they have to be clean - body oils will interfere with the functioning of the membrane. Wash in detergent, not soap. Heat seems to recharge the membrane as well: dry in a dryer (but not too hot). You can even iron (again, not so hot as to melt the nylon to which it is bonded) sections that seem to be less repellent. Finally, seam sealing (and resealing) is important.

That said, I have always been less than happy with such clothing that has a nylon liner (like what the people are wearing in the moon shot). You sweat into the liner and it stays wet, finally soaking you. I prefer the clothing that has the membrane laminated between 2 bonded layers or with a mesh liner - the better airflow enhances breathability and overall staying dry.
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Postby Diego Sahagún » Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:52 am

BrunoM wrote:
Diego Sahagún wrote:
phydeux wrote:If you're riding a bicycle, why not use fenders and a rain cape? I'd never wear Gortex pants and parka for riding in the rain. Look online and you'll find fenders for any type of bicycle you might own. And the same online store should also sell rain capes; they look something like a poncho. but have attachments points for your hands so you can spead it out and have some ventilation. A poncho also works well.

+1


Riding a bike with a poncho is madness. It obstructs your movements and your hands, and if there's a strong wind (which happens sometimes when it's raining), you become a sailboat on wheels.

I don't ride my mountain bike wearing poncho Bruno :wink:
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Postby T Sharp » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:34 am

Gore-Tex has to be washed and rinsed in hot water, which opens up the pores and thoroughly cleans and rinses them out. If you wash your Gore-Tex in cold or even warm water you will fill the pores of the membrane with scum and guarantee a non breathable, sweat catching $450.00 jacket. The other very important part of the function of Gore-Tex is to maintain the DWR on the outer nylon, once the nylon "wets" out, the transfer of water vapor through the membrane will cease, again creating a $450.00 non-breathing, sweat bucket of a jacket. Gore-Tex is great stuff, but it is not maintenance free!
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Postby Damien Gildea » Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:53 am

jdzaharia wrote:GoreTex definitely has a finite lifespan. This photo shows an example, that cannot be explained by sweat or condensation.

Image


I don't know wtf is going on with those guys in this pic(!), but those garments are insulated, you can see the quilting, so issues with Gore-Tex are irrelevant to this photo. If it's cold enough to wear insulated bib-n-brace it's too cold to rain, and with the added layers of lined insulation a Gore membrane will not breathe properly anyway.
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Postby jdzaharia » Mon Apr 19, 2010 3:28 pm

Damien Gildea wrote:
jdzaharia wrote:GoreTex definitely has a finite lifespan. This photo shows an example, that cannot be explained by sweat or condensation.

Image


I don't know wtf is going on with those guys in this pic(!), but those garments are insulated, you can see the quilting, so issues with Gore-Tex are irrelevant to this photo. If it's cold enough to wear insulated bib-n-brace it's too cold to rain, and with the added layers of lined insulation a Gore membrane will not breathe properly anyway.


The photo was not intended to show that Gore-Tex doesn't work at all, but that older Gore-Tex does not retain its intended properties. Yes, the garments are insulated. The person on the left has something other than Gore-Tex. The photo was taken during a 200-mile snowmobile ride in the rain. It wasn't too cold to rain, and we were not over-dressed. Ambient temperature ranged from 33F to 40F that day. And plenty of insulated clothing breaths just fine. The issue of faulty Gore-Tex is fully relevant, as the rain obviously penetrated the Gore-Tex membrane, especially in the butt, where rain gathers on the snowmobile seat. Rain also penetrated the inside of the elbows on a few of our coats, but two of those were Reissa-lined. (Your elbows don't sweat while riding a snowmobile.) Two of us stayed nearly completely dry and well-breathed--one person wearing new Gore-Tex, and myself wearing 16-year-old Hein-Gericke polished leather.
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Postby Ice9 » Mon Apr 19, 2010 5:56 pm

The problem is you were wearing pants in the first place. No pants, no problem. That's what I always say.
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Postby Damien Gildea » Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:31 am

jdzaharia wrote:The photo was not intended to show that Gore-Tex doesn't work at all, but that older Gore-Tex does not retain its intended properties.


This is well-known, but for a variety of reasons, such as DWR wearing off, or the membrane becoming clogged. But it's also known that if pressed hard between your body and a wet surface water will be forced through. This usually happens on knees. eVent is even worse for this.

And plenty of insulated clothing breaths just fine.


Yes, but not with a Gore-Tex shell it doesn't. Gore-Tex was not meant to work this way. The body vapor becomes trapped and cool in the insulation and cannot pass through the membrane. You may not feel wet inside, but the insulation will have moisture in it. For day or overnight use this is not really a problem, as it drys out soon enough. This is why Pertex is a better shell for down gear than DryLoft.

The issue of faulty Gore-Tex is fully relevant, as the rain obviously penetrated the Gore-Tex membrane, especially in the butt, ... Rain also penetrated the inside of the elbows on a few of our coats, ... Two of us stayed nearly completely dry and well-breathed--one person wearing new Gore-Tex,


See above re: pressure points. It's not necessarily 'faulty', you've just exceeded the limitations of the fabric, for a combination of reasons.
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Postby jdzaharia » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:43 am

Damien Gildea wrote:
jdzaharia wrote:And plenty of insulated clothing breaths just fine.


Gore-Tex was not meant to work this way.

Then, why do the crooks advertise it to work as such and sell it that way? $400 for a pair of Klim insulated bibs and the pieces of crap aren't even meant to keep you dry and well-breathed?!


It's not necessarily 'faulty', you've just exceeded the limitations of the fabric, for a combination of reasons.

Yeah, exceeded the limitations of a faulty fabric. :P Either way, the end result is diaper rash. :D

I see what you're saying, though. I've never found Gore-Tex to be worth a crap in boots, probably because there is no air space in the boots. My feet are generally soaked with sweat/condensation before they ever get a chance to be wet from the outside.

What the heck is Gore-Tex good for?
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