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Sierra Class 4 Rope Redux

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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby The Chief » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:33 am

Yes Bob.

But the NPS folks in Yosemite Valley have grown tired of having to put their SAR (YOSAR) people in harms way far too often in the past ten or so years because far too many do not use "good judgement".

That is why they now warn that if after any SAR evolution the ensuing investigation finds that bad judgement was in fact the cause, the individuals will be billed full price for the op. If the individual is deceased, the immediate family will then be billed.

Utilizing eq inappropriately is the first item the NPS SAR investigators look at. Fact.
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby mrchad9 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:37 am

The Chief wrote:That is why they now warn that if after any SAR evolution the ensuing investigation finds that bad judgement was in fact the cause, the individuals will be billed full price for the op. If the individual is deceased, the immediate family will then be billed.

I can confirm that as of last Saturday if you walk into the wilderness permit office and tell them you are descending Tenaya Canyon, you will receive no such warning at all.

Also your immediate family cannot legally be billed for such activities unless you are a minor.
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby The Chief » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:43 am

Wrong Chad!

Read your WP issued by the NPS. And why did you get a WP for a one day outting???????? The NPS issues no such thing!

Amazingly so many do not do so. Both Chris Mac and Reid even have this warning in both of their Yos guidebooks.

If anyone has any questions regarding this fact, Werner Braun will be more than happy to accommodate any of them regarding the ensuing cost of any SAR by YOSAR if anyone is found to be negligent as the cause for the group to be dispatched.
Last edited by The Chief on Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby MoapaPk » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:49 am

So, wait. Are you guys saying that this climbing stuff may be dangerous?
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby mrchad9 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:49 am

The Chief wrote:Wrong Chad!

Read your WP issued by the NPS. And why did you get a WP for a one day outting????????

Amazingly so many do not do so. Both Chris Mac and Reid even have this warning in both of their Yos guidebooks.

I've gotten one more recently than you. Sorry, but another swing and a miss for you.

I read the entire WP. It doesn't say anything about billing parties for rescues for any reason whatsoever. Your statement on this matter (and others) is false.

Nor did I use a guidebook (or even own a Yosemite guidebook). All I had was Bob's SP page.

And I got a WP because I slept at the top of the Glacial Valley, the timing of the shuttle bus made that the best option for me.
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby Princess Buttercup » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:03 am

mrchad9 wrote:Bob... I did that route yesterday.

That is an outstanding page you submitted for it. Your writeup on SP and a printout of three of your route pictures was the perfect beta.

My favorite trip so far this year and my new favorite in Yosemite as well. Probably will do it every year or so now (dispite the Yosemite brochure's manufacturer's recommendations).

Thanks!



I LOVE that sign! (and the route, truly fine adventure and swimming!!!)

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby Bob Burd » Tue Sep 20, 2011 2:21 am

The Chief wrote:Both Chris Mac and Reid even have this warning in both of their Yos guidebooks.


This would be an important departure from my current understanding, so I looked it up. Maybe I have the wrong guidebook, but the Yosemite Climbs / Big Walls book by Reid has this on page 19:

"Who Pays for Rescues? The taxpayer does; the NPS does not charge for the cost of rescues, except for any ambulance services required. This is true even if you are fined by the courts for negligence, which is a separate charge altogether."

I have two of McNamara's books, Yosemite Ultra Classics and Yosemite Big Walls but can't find a discussion of this in them.

Do your perhaps newer versions have something different?
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby x15x15 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:30 am

MoapaPk wrote:So, wait. Are you guys saying that this climbing stuff may be dangerous?


ding, ding, ding... who would still climb if climbing was just another walk in the park? i would have devoted way more time to fishing if climbing was so ordinary...
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby lefty » Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:42 am

The Chief wrote:
mrchad9 wrote: I suppose all those manufacturers out there should be taken to task for producing all those useless 30 m versions eh?

Maybe you should read and heed the manufactures directions on the proper and safe applications of their products before spewing shit ignorant unsafe beta.

From the manufacture of the original 30m length rope:


8.3 Glacier Line:

Glacier half rope with superDRY™ finish. Only available in 30 and 40 m lengths. N.B.: Under no circumstances to be used as a single rope for mountaineering or rockclimbing.



http://www.mammut.ch/en/productDetail/2 ... +Line.html

From BEAL and their discription of the rope you posted as using:
[i]
[b]Rando 8mm 30m "Mountain Walking"

USES :
[size=200]High level walking and glacier crossing only.


http://www.beal-planet.com/sport/anglai ... -rando.php[/b][/size][/i]


Utilizing the proper gear in the proper scenario will in fact keep one alive. I suggest that you heed the mau's warnings and use their equipment properly and as directed by their instructions. It is a fact that not doing so kills. Just look at many of the latest fatalities in the Valley this season alone from folks not using nor heeding the directions of specific gear and implementing their own ideas on how to use it. All of course leading to their ultimate deaths.


According to the Beal website, the Rando rope is also rated for for five falls when used as a single strand. So it seems to me that even though Beal may say to its purpose is for certain activities and not for other activities, the rope is designed to take a fall and I assume this means a leader fall.
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby mrchad9 » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:12 am

MooseTracks wrote:I LOVE that sign! (and the route, truly fine adventure and swimming!!!)

Image

Where exactly is that sign? I totally walked right by it and missed it, though it was getting dark at the time. In the morning I went back up the steepest portion of the top of Glacial Valley (but not all the way into the woods) and did not happen to notice it.

Something for me to find on next year's trip.
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby goldenhopper » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:12 am

I think it's important to focus on the technical aspects of a mountain adventure and to avoid having any fun. When we have fun we tend to get sloppy and getting sloppy can lead to an accident; or worse even death! Nobody wants to die having fun. I find it better to focus on my technical gear and I have a lot of it to focus on. I think of my gear when I go to bed at night. At sundown when the sun sets just right it casts the most beautiful glow on my shinny gear (they call this gearglow) and I can forget all the problems of the world and focus just on my stuff. I love the mountains yes, but what would they be worth without my gear? Nil I tell you… nil!
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby The Chief » Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:44 am

Bob Burd wrote:
The Chief wrote:Both Chris Mac and Reid even have this warning in both of their Yos guidebooks.


This would be an important departure from my current understanding, so I looked it up. Maybe I have the wrong guidebook, but the Yosemite Climbs / Big Walls book by Reid has this on page 19:

"Who Pays for Rescues? The taxpayer does; the NPS does not charge for the cost of rescues, except for any ambulance services required. This is true even if you are fined by the courts for negligence, which is a separate charge altogether."

I have two of McNamara's books, Yosemite Ultra Classics and Yosemite Big Walls but can't find a discussion of this in them.

Do your perhaps newer versions have something different?


Page 21 of Reid's Free Climbs 1994:

Thus, if your own negligence got you in trouble, you may be charged with "creating a hazardous condition" for others. As an example, a climber was fined because he became stranded by a hail storm while attempting to free solo. Storms had been predicted and his rescue should not have been necessary.

Here are several threads from ST where Werner (YOSAR Ops Supervisor) clarifies this issue:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/threa ... msg1283065

Werner-- The $700 is just standard charge for transport, medical and rescue personal charges.
NPS recoups some of the cost of the rescue.


John -- "Does everyone who needs a rescue get charged this fee?"
Werner -- If there's medical involved, yes.


http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/threa ... msg1497043

Werner--- I believe you get sent to court if you're negligent and require rescue then the judge will determine the punishment in some form or other usually in form as a fine.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/threa ... 4956&tn=20

MH - the NPS has a term called "Creating a hazardous situation" for the rest of the US it can fall under disorderly conduct. In both cases the person must be cited, tried, found guilty, and then as part of the sentencing be required to pay for the rescue costs.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/threa ... 9#msg31169

DAD--- Rescues in Yosemite are not charegd for.Even if the climbing party does something dumb & reckless, the most I have seen is a charge of reckless endangerment,and a small fine.
Enjoy your stay & climb safe.
Mark

Werner-- Not so DAD! Many have been fined and charged!


PTPP--- The authorities are more and more likely these days to charge you for your rescue if they can find an excuse. Rescues - especially those involving helicopters - are extraordinarily expensive. If they can find a way to blame you and bill you, they probably will.

The most infamous example of this was in the case of some Austrians [I think] who went up on The Shield improperly prepared. As far as I can recall, they had down sleeping bags [not synthetic], no bivi sacks, no rain fly for their ledge [or one that was no good] and perhaps no rain gear. These guys were rescued, and they were billed something in the order of $20,000. I'm guessing this happened in the mid- to late-90's. For sure someone around here will know.



There is a lot more info on this issue by contacting the YNP Law Enforcement Office @ 209-372-0616. Trust me, they will be more than happy to clarify this rule and it's history of being enforced. I did so earlier this eve.

Also one can contact Werner Braun at the YNP SAR Ops Office. He too will be more than happy to fully inform you on this rules enforcement over the past 25 some years. 209-372-0216/217


lefty wrote:According to the Beal website, the Rando rope is also rated for for five falls when used as a single strand. So it seems to me that even though Beal may say to its purpose is for certain activities and not for other activities, the rope is designed to take a fall and I assume this means a leader fall.


Not so fast.

Image

Twin rope :
Twin ropes are not designed for climbing ‘en fleche’ (That’s to say with seconds tied into just one strand each).

This rope is always used with the two strands together, remaining parallel: each climber ties into both strands, and these are always clipped together. Its advantage over single rope is that it allows for abseils as long as the rope. It is lighter than half rope but does not allow for separate strand clipping.


"NOTE: Twin ropes are designed to be used in matching pairs (sizes, lengths and brands) and should be used parallel within a twin rope system. Using a mis-matched pair will cause undue wear on the ropes, exposing you to a higher risk of rope failure. They can be used singly in certain situations (like basic glacier climbs and traverses) where the risk of severe falls is absent."

http://www.beal-planet.com/sport/anglai ... p#typedyna
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby Vitaliy M. » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:29 pm

Twin ropes and doubles are two different things...
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby MoapaPk » Tue Sep 20, 2011 4:45 pm

I think it is important that your rope be at least as strong as the manzanita bush that you are using as an anchor.
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Re: Sierra Class 4+ rope

Postby The Chief » Tue Sep 20, 2011 5:26 pm

Vitaliy M. wrote:Twin ropes and doubles are two different things...


Ah, what does that have to do with anything VM????

The Rando is a Twin Rated cord as are the other Glacier Cords that are available on the market.

MoapaPk wrote:I think it is important that your rope be at least as strong as the manzanita bush that you are using as an anchor.


Hey MoPk, like this original Beckey anchor on P3 of his Premier Route at the WP??
(Oct 1994)
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