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Postby Smoove910 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:45 pm

sjarelkwint wrote:
Smoove910 wrote:Test the effects of an orgasm at elevated altitude compared to sea level. Male and female.

I'm sure you can find a lot of subjects willing to be the control. :P


But only male persons probably ... Why do you need to have sex on a 6000m summit, it is cold and the view will give you an orgasm without taking out your stuff in the air ...


Because you can.... and for bragging rights. Not many people can say they laid some pipe at 12,000+ ft.
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Postby CClaude » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:45 pm

The affect of l-arginine on the reduction of pulmonary edema.

-Its well known that l-arginine is the limiting substrate in the production of nitric oxide with the assumption that the individual has a healthy endothelium (probably a good assumption with a fit individual).
-It has also been shown that by increasing nitric oxide production, there is also a concurrent improvement in vascular tone.
-It has also been shown recently that vascular tone plays an important role in determining who gets HAPE and who doesn't.

Give these three assumptions, I'd expect that l-arginine would play a role in determining the outcome of HAPE.

One thing to caution about is the administration of l-arginine to an individual with a previous myocardial infarction is contraindicated due to an increase in cardiac events (from which I'd expect is a result on variations in vascular tone which may allow an increase in number of patient getting HF (sort of a result of the erectile hypothosis on why bone marrow mononuclear cells enhance cardiac function in post-AMI and HF patients by increasing angiogenesis leading to a higher capillary density and a stiffer tissue, whereas l-arginine increasing NO production would lead to an enlarged but relaxed blood vessel, allowing for myocardial slippage allowing a post-AMI patient to progress to HF).

If you want the journal articles that support the above assumptions I'd be glad to supply them.
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Postby mstender » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:57 pm

CClaude wrote:The affect of l-arginine on the reduction of pulmonary edema.

-Its well known that l-arginine is the limiting substrate in the production of nitric oxide with the assumption that the individual has a healthy endothelium (probably a good assumption with a fit individual).
-It has also been shown that by increasing nitric oxide production, there is also a concurrent improvement in vascular tone.
-It has also been shown recently that vascular tone plays an important role in determining who gets HAPE and who doesn't.

Give these three assumptions, I'd expect that l-arginine would play a role in determining the outcome of HAPE.

One thing to caution about is the administration of l-arginine to an individual with a previous myocardial infarction is contraindicated due to an increase in cardiac events (from which I'd expect is a result on variations in vascular tone which may allow an increase in number of patient getting HF (sort of a result of the erectile hypothosis on why bone marrow mononuclear cells enhance cardiac function in post-AMI and HF patients by increasing angiogenesis leading to a higher capillary density and a stiffer tissue, whereas l-arginine increasing NO production would lead to an enlarged but relaxed blood vessel, allowing for myocardial slippage allowing a post-AMI patient to progress to HF).

If you want the journal articles that support the above assumptions I'd be glad to supply them.


Somebody is getting serious again...well, it's still in the general forum and not in PnP yet. :lol:
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Postby Luciano136 » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:03 pm

sjarelkwint wrote:EDIT: The more I think about the IQ test the more interesting it gets .. The days you are at altitude you can test people ... You can try to arrange with the people to test them when they get back and aren't wasted (altitude + tired + ...) anymore in mendoza ...


I'm 100% positive it will lower IQ significantly but it would be interesting to see by how much.

Try to do some math when you get to 14k. Boy, is it ever tough. I remember on a few occasions trying to count how many hours and minutes it took me to get to the top and I have to seriously concentrate LOL
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Postby CClaude » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:08 pm

Luciano136 wrote:
sjarelkwint wrote:EDIT: The more I think about the IQ test the more interesting it gets .. The days you are at altitude you can test people ... You can try to arrange with the people to test them when they get back and aren't wasted (altitude + tired + ...) anymore in mendoza ...


I'm 100% positive it will lower IQ significantly but it would be interesting to see by how much.

Try to do some math when you get to 14k. Boy, is it ever tough. I remember on a few occasions trying to count how many hours and minutes it took me to get to the top and I have to seriously concentrate LOL


That has actually been studied.

Actually, I was only serious because I've been wondering about the affect of l-arginine for about 4 yrs.

Now if you want, you could also have as a secondary endpoint the affect of l-arginine on male/female (sheep, goat, llama,.....) relationships at altitude (which in theory should also be affected by vascular tone :oops: .
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Postby barrys » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:52 pm

I can definitely recommend not trying the 'smokin' study. My own research in the same field a few years ago resulted in a bad experience. Having had a 'celebration' of reaching our goal on a rocky outcrop in the Glacier Du Tabuchet, La Meije, serious vertigo took over and I was irrationally scared stiff of the 100+meter cliff right next to me. Total freakout. There was no reasoning with me and I couldn't move for at least half an hour. 2 hours later and we were falling around the place laughing about it. Would my insurance have covered rescue costs in the event of a 'freakout'? Had nothing to do with altitude but it did with surroundings, so I'll be leaving that one alone for a long while.

On a serious note the asthma study would be very interesting to me as I'm a moderate/severe asthmatic. I never have any breathing problems in the great outdoors and I certainly coped up to 5,000metres much better than my girlfriend. Have also been around 4,000m plenty of times always breathing much better than I would in London, Delhi or Kathmandu, I guess pretty much any big city. Though I'd simply put that down to the purity of and lack of irritants in the air in mountain environments compared to normal. I've heard from plenty of other places that asthma can in fact be aggravated by altitude, the logic of which I don't understand. Can any SP doctors shed further light on the subject?

Of course if you do go for an asthma Aconcagua study then I want in!! At a push I could probably take part in a double study, rippers and asthma at altitude, if it got me to Aconcagua I'd do it.
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Postby Sean Kenney » Sat Sep 26, 2009 12:00 am

barrys wrote:I can definitely recommend not trying the 'smokin' study. My own research in the same field a few years ago resulted in a bad experience. Having had a 'celebration' of reaching our goal on a rocky outcrop in the Glacier Du Tabuchet, La Meije, serious vertigo took over and I was irrationally scared stiff of the 100+meter cliff right next to me. Total freakout. There was no reasoning with me and I couldn't move for at least half an hour. 2 hours later and we were falling around the place laughing about it. Would my insurance have covered rescue costs in the event of a 'freakout'? Had nothing to do with altitude but it did with surroundings, so I'll be leaving that one alone for a long while.

On a serious note the asthma study would be very interesting to me as I'm a moderate/severe asthmatic. I never have any breathing problems in the great outdoors and I certainly coped up to 5,000metres much better than my girlfriend. Have also been around 4,000m plenty of times always breathing much better than I would in London, Delhi or Kathmandu, I guess pretty much any big city. Though I'd simply put that down to the purity of and lack of irritants in the air in mountain environments compared to normal. I've heard from plenty of other places that asthma can in fact be aggravated by altitude, the logic of which I don't understand. Can any SP doctors shed further light on the subject?

Of course if you do go for an asthma Aconcagua study then I want in!! At a push I could probably take part in a double study, rippers and asthma at altitude, if it got me to Aconcagua I'd do it.


You can be the control group...I'll do the bong hits. Somebody's gotta take one for the team. :lol:
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Postby mstender » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:04 am

Sean Kenney wrote:
barrys wrote:I can definitely recommend not trying the 'smokin' study. My own research in the same field a few years ago resulted in a bad experience. Having had a 'celebration' of reaching our goal on a rocky outcrop in the Glacier Du Tabuchet, La Meije, serious vertigo took over and I was irrationally scared stiff of the 100+meter cliff right next to me. Total freakout. There was no reasoning with me and I couldn't move for at least half an hour. 2 hours later and we were falling around the place laughing about it. Would my insurance have covered rescue costs in the event of a 'freakout'? Had nothing to do with altitude but it did with surroundings, so I'll be leaving that one alone for a long while.

On a serious note the asthma study would be very interesting to me as I'm a moderate/severe asthmatic. I never have any breathing problems in the great outdoors and I certainly coped up to 5,000metres much better than my girlfriend. Have also been around 4,000m plenty of times always breathing much better than I would in London, Delhi or Kathmandu, I guess pretty much any big city. Though I'd simply put that down to the purity of and lack of irritants in the air in mountain environments compared to normal. I've heard from plenty of other places that asthma can in fact be aggravated by altitude, the logic of which I don't understand. Can any SP doctors shed further light on the subject?

Of course if you do go for an asthma Aconcagua study then I want in!! At a push I could probably take part in a double study, rippers and asthma at altitude, if it got me to Aconcagua I'd do it.


You can be the control group...I'll do the bong hits. Somebody's gotta take one for the team. :lol:


I don't have asthma but maybe I should revisit my decision from several years ago to kick the habit if it gets me to Aconcagua... :lol:
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Postby peladoboton » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:42 am

barrys wrote:Of course if you do go for an asthma Aconcagua study then I want in!! At a push I could probably take part in a double study, rippers and asthma at altitude, if it got me to Aconcagua I'd do it.


if you hadn't guess already, some of us are pretty much trying to get a study together to have a 'reason' to go there. i wanna climb that madre!!
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Postby peladoboton » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:17 am

not sure if this one will be tested by the time Jan 2012 comes around, but this abstract looks interesting:

High Alt Med Biol. 2008 Spring;9(1):63-75.

Cobalt supplementation promotes hypoxic tolerance and facilitates acclimatization to hypobaric hypoxia in rat brain.

Shrivastava K, Ram MS, Bansal A, Singh SS, Ilavazhagan G.
Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences, Timarpur, India. shri_kalpana@yahoo.com

In the present study, we report the molecular mechanisms of action by cobalt in facilitating acclimatization to hypobaric hypoxia using male Sprague-Dawley rats as the model system. We determined hypoxic gasping time and survival time as a measure to assess the degree of tolerance of animals to hypobaric hypoxia by exposing the animals to an altitude of 10,668 m. Oral administration of cobalt chloride (12.5 mg Co/kg body weight, BW, for 7 days) increased gasping time and hypoxic survival time by 3 to 4 times compared to the control animals. This could be attributed to an increased expression and the DNA binding activity of hypoxia inducible transcriptional factor (HIF-1alpha) and its regulated genes, that is, erythropoietin (EPO), vascular endothelial growth factor (VEGF), glucose transporter-1 (Glut-1), and nitric oxide synthase (NOS) levels. This in turn leads to better oxygenation, oxygen delivery, glucose transport, and maintenance of vascular tone, respectively, under oxygen-limited conditions. This was further confirmed by lower levels of lactate dehydrogenase (LDH) activity and lactate in the brain of cobalt + hypoxia group compared with animals exposed to hypoxia. Glucose levels also increased after cobalt supplementation. The findings of the study provide a basis for the possible use of cobalt for facilitating acclimatization to hypoxia and other conditions involving oxygen deprivation
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Postby peladoboton » Sat Sep 26, 2009 2:21 am

and here's the follow-up i just found...i'm trying this stuff myself!!

High Alt Med Biol. 2009 Spring;10(1):57-69

Hypoxic preconditioning with cobalt attenuates hypobaric hypoxia-induced oxidative damage in rat lungs.

Shukla D, Saxena S, Jayamurthy P, Sairam M, Singh M, Jain SK, Bansal A, Ilavazaghan G.
Defence Institute of Physiology & Allied Sciences, Defence Research and Development Organization, Timarpur, Delhi, India.

Shukla, Dhananjay, Saurabh Saxena, Purushotman Jayamurthy, Mustoori Sairam, Mrinalini, Singh, Swatantra Kumar Jain, Anju Bansal, and Govindaswamy Ilavazaghan. High Alt. Med. Biol. 10:57-69, 2009.-Hypoxic preco759nditioning (HPC) provides robust protection against injury from subsequent prolonged hypobaric hypoxia, which is a characteristic of high altitude and is known to induce oxidative injury in lung by increasing the generation of reactive oxygen species (ROS) and decreasing the effectiveness of the antioxidant defense system. We hypothesize that HPC with cobalt might protect the lung from subsequent hypobaric hypoxia-induced lung injury. HPC with cobalt can be achieved by oral feeding of CoCl(2) (12.5 mg kg(-1)) in rats for 7 days. Nonpreconditioned rats responded to hypobaric hypoxia (7619 m) by increased reactive oxygen species (ROS) generation and a decreased GSH/GSSG ratio. They also showed a marked increase in lipid peroxidation, heat-shock proteins (HSP32, HSP70), metallothionins (MT), levels of inflammatory cytokines (TNF-alpha, IFN-gamma, MCP-1), and SOD, GPx, and GST enzyme activity. In contrast, rats preconditioned with cobalt were far less impaired by severe hypobaric hypoxia, as observed by decreased ROS generation, lipid peroxidation, and inflammatory cytokine release and an inceased GSH/GSSG ratio. Increased expression of antioxidative proeins Nrf-1, HSP-32, and MT was also observed in cobalt- preconditioned animals. A marked increase in the protein expression and DNA binding activity of hypoxia-inducible transcriptional factor (HIF-1alpha) and its regulated genes, such as erythropoietin (EPO) and glucose transporter-1 (glut-1), was observed after HPC with cobalt. We conclude that HPC with cobalt enhances antioxidant status in the lung and protects from subsequent hypobaric hypoxia-induced oxidative stress.
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Postby CClaude » Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:27 am

CClaude wrote:
Luciano136 wrote:
sjarelkwint wrote:EDIT: The more I think about the IQ test the more interesting it gets .. The days you are at altitude you can test people ... You can try to arrange with the people to test them when they get back and aren't wasted (altitude + tired + ...) anymore in mendoza ...


I'm 100% positive it will lower IQ significantly but it would be interesting to see by how much.

Try to do some math when you get to 14k. Boy, is it ever tough. I remember on a few occasions trying to count how many hours and minutes it took me to get to the top and I have to seriously concentrate LOL


That has actually been studied.

Actually, I was only serious because I've been wondering about the affect of l-arginine for about 4 yrs.

Now if you want, you could also have as a secondary endpoint the affect of l-arginine on male/female (sheep, goat, llama,.....) relationships at altitude (which in theory should also be affected by vascular tone :oops: .


Am. J. Respir. Crit. Care Med., Volume 162, Number 1, July 2000, 221-224


Exhaled Nitric Oxide in High-Altitude Pulmonary Edema
Role in the Regulation of Pulmonary Vascular Tone and Evidence for a Role against Inflammation
HERVÉ DUPLAIN, CLAUDIO SARTORI, MATTIA LEPORI, MARC EGLI, YVES ALLEMANN, PASCAL NICOD, and URS SCHERRER

Department of Internal Medicine and the Botnar Center for Clinical Research, Centre Hospitalier Universitaire Vaudois, Lausanne; and Department of Cardiology, Inselspital, Bern, Switzerland

High-altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE) is a life-threatening condition occurring in predisposed subjects at altitudes above 2,500 m. It is not clear whether, in addition to hemodynamic factors and defective alveolar fluid clearance, inflammation plays a pathogenic role in HAPE. We therefore made serial measurements of exhaled pulmonary nitric oxide (NO), a marker of airway inflammation, in 28 HAPE-prone and 24 control subjects during high-altitude exposure (4,559 m). To examine the relationship between pulmonary NO synthesis and pulmonary vascular tone, we also measured systolic pulmonary artery pressure (Ppa). In the 13 subjects who developed HAPE, exhaled NO did not show any tendency to increase during the development of lung edema. Throughout the entire sojourn at high altitude, pulmonary exhaled NO was roughly 30% lower in HAPE-prone than in control subjects, and there existed an inverse relationship between Ppa and exhaled NO (r = 0.51, p < 0.001). These findings suggest that HAPE is not preceded by airway inflammation. Reduced exhaled NO may be related to altered pulmonary NO synthesis and/or transport and clearance, and the data in our study could be consistent with the novel concept that in HAPE-prone subjects, a defect in pulmonary epithelial NO synthesis may contribute to exaggerated hypoxic pulmonary vasoconstriction and in turn to pulmonary edema

Circulation. 2002;106:826.)
© 2002 American Heart Association, Inc.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clinical Investigation and Reports


Positive Association of the Endothelial Nitric Oxide Synthase Gene Polymorphisms With High-Altitude Pulmonary Edema
Yunden Droma, MD; Masayuki Hanaoka, MD; Masao Ota, PhD; Yoshihiko Katsuyama, PhD; Tomonobu Koizumi, MD; Keisaku Fujimoto, MD; Toshio Kobayashi, MD; Keishi Kubo, MD
From the Departments of Medicine (Y.D., M.H., T. Koizumi, K.F., T. Kobayashi, K.K.), Legal Medicine (M.O.), and Pharmacy (Y.K.), Shinshu University School of Medicine, Matsumoto, Japan.

Correspondence to Masayuki Hanaoka, MD, First Department of Medicine, Shinshu University School of Medicine, 3-1-1 Asahi, Matsumoto 390-8621, Japan. E-mail masayuki@hsp.md.shinshu-u.ac.jp

Background— A defect of nitric oxide (NO) synthesis in the lung of high-altitude pulmonary edema (HAPE) has been suggested to contribute to its exaggerated pulmonary hypertension. Several polymorphisms have been identified in the gene encoding endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS), which is a key enzyme responsible for NO synthesis, some of which were reported to be associated with vascular disorders.

Methods and Results— We studied 41 HAPE-susceptible subjects (HAPE-s) and 51 healthy climbers (control group) in a Japanese population. We examined 2 polymorphisms of the eNOS gene, including the Glu298Asp variant and 27-base pair (bp) variable numbers of tandem repeats using polymerase chain reaction followed by restriction fragment length polymorphism. The Asp allelic frequency of the Glu298Asp variant was 25.6% in the HAPE-s and 9.8% in the controls, which was significantly different between the two groups (P=0.0044). The eNOS4a allelic frequency of 27-bp variable numbers of tandem repeats was 23.2% in the HAPE-s, significantly higher than that of 6.9% in the controls (P=0.0016). In HAPE-s group, 11 of 41 (26.8%) subjects possessed simultaneously both of the two significant alleles, but among the controls, none did, which showed a high statistical difference between the two groups (P=0.000059).

Conclusions— Both polymorphisms of the eNOS gene were significantly associated with HAPE. A genetic background may underlie the impaired NO synthesis in the pulmonary circulation of HAPE-s. These polymorphisms could be genetic markers for predicting the susceptibility to HAPE.

And the association of l-arginine and No synthase is from Prof John Cooke (Stanford University)

Cooke JP, Tsao PS. Arginine: a new therapy for atherosclerosis? Circulation 1997; 95: 311-312.

There was also a clinical trial in 2002 that pre-dates the VINTAGE MI trial showing an affect of arginine/NO and /AMI's published in Circulation which I'll get the reference for

J Am Coll Cardiol, 1998; 32:1336-1344
© 1998 by the American College of Cardiology Foundation



CLINICAL STUDIES
Restoring vascular nitric oxide formation by L-arginine improves the symptoms of intermittent claudication in patients with peripheral arterial occlusive disease
Rainer H. Böger, MD*, Stefanie M. Bode-Böger, MD*, Wolfgang Thiele*, Andreas Creutzig, MD, Klaus Alexander, MD and J.ürgen C. Frölich, MD*

Whereas the contraindication for AMI patient populations is based on the VINTAGE MI clinical trial (2007)

and if you peruse the literature you'll also see the affect of NO/arginine on VEGF regulation
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Postby kiwiw » Sat Sep 26, 2009 4:09 am

does weed make blood flow through the extemities? like the same way alcohol does? if so, it could be a emergency lightweight hobo heater if you were cold in camp or something.
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Postby Day Hiker » Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:21 am

kiwiw wrote:does weed make blood flow through the extemities? like the same way alcohol does? if so, it could be a emergency lightweight hobo heater if you were cold in camp or something.


I'm not a doctor. But I think when you are cold, your body reduces blood flow to extremities and skin in order to preserve the heat where it matters most, in the body's core. Something that defeats this process will simply transfer more heat from the body's core and allow it to be lost through the skin. This would not be a desirable effect for anything described as a heater.

If a drug warms you by increasing your metabolism or something, that might work, as long as your body has the energy to sustain that metabolism.
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Postby WouterB » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:46 pm

1) Let's try to keep this in general, not PnP.
2) Funding a study can't be that hard if you have a decent study.
3) My allergy seems to get better when I'm in cold dry places.
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