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Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:29 am

Kahuna wrote:
WyomingSummits wrote:FOTH page 240. "Runners are used to isolate rope movement from the protection, keeping protection from wiggling or walking from it's intended placement, and also helps minimize friction or rope drag on the climbing rope". Yeah, Freedom of the Hills obviously meant "dogbone sport climbing draws" when they said "runners". Moron. And yeah, I understand twin and double rope technique.


NO.... the ref where you stated:

WyomingSummits wrote: but there are documented cases of multiple pieces zippering because of bad techniques that are perfectly fine on a sport climb.


Let's see em.

mattyj wrote:Surely you don't actually think that sling length/stiffness has zero correlation to gear walking, especially on wandering pitches?


This accident resulted from a series of combined incidents. Kropp was relatively inexperienced at placing natural gear, and though a powerful athlete, was at his lead limit. The fact that the top cam pulled indicates that it was either placed incorrectly or walked into an insecure position, which is possible since he clipped all of his protection with short, stiff quickdraws.



When CAMS WALK, they go inward into the crack and never outward. Their basic design principal prevents them from walking outward.

Now if the CAM failed due to flaring into the open "passive" position which many modern cams are designed to be used in, then that is a far different issue. That then needs to be addressed with the manufacture of said CAM if it in fact was designed to take a load in the open "Passive" position and then it failed when it did.

But it didn't. It "pulled" and now where in that ANAM evaluation does it specifically state that it "walked out" and then "pulled". Again, CAMS do not walk outward. It is impossible due to their basic design.


They can walk inward and then get pulled up due to rope drag if the crack flares inward. Again, a string climber not knowing how to place gear. Was that the ONLY thing that caused Kropps accident? Prob not. But an Alpine club investigation concluded it was a major cause. But you know more than an experienced panel of climbers.....you already know it all don't ya?
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:37 am

WyomingSummits wrote: I've trad led on 3 continents for 26 yrs you inet jockey.


Of course you have.


Now, when are you going give that reference.


ONLY thing that caused Kropps accident? Prob not. But an Alpine club investigation concluded it was a major cause


No it isn't. It is one of two concluded "possible" causes. Read the ENTIRE Analysis conclusions as I posted above.

And to add to the 2003 ANAM investigation of Kropps incident:
Another scenario is that Kropp dislodged the piece himself by kicking it with his feet as he climbed past it.


http://books.google.com/books?id=kHK3zW ... ed&f=false

That second "possible" scenario totally nullifies the first. So which one was it.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:49 am

Off of REI's website of all places.


Sewn Runner FAQs



Q: Do I need sewn runners for sport climbing or just for trad climbing?



A: Sewn runners are most useful for trad climbing, where you are placing cams and nuts and the route winds back and forth. Some particularly crooked sport climbs may require single or double length sewn runners to minimize rope drag, but this is rare.



While quickdraws have their place on trad climbs, there are 2 good reasons to use single- and double-length slings (runners):


•To minimize rope drag with longer extensions from the protection points to the rope. This way the rope travels straighter and less like a Z.
•To keep the gear from inverting as you climb by it (or if you fall) and thus being pulled out.





Your ignorance is becoming more and more clear. Do you even know what I mean by a "stiff dogbone quickdraw"? I'm not talking about a quickdraw length short runner, I mean those fricken ridiculously stiff, short, dogbone looking draws where the carabiner has little chance to rotate out of position. If you can't see the difference between that, and a doubled full length runner, and the affect they can have on a gear placement.......then my condolences to your mother.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby pvnisher » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:54 am

Am I the only one laughing at "stiff dogbone"?
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:56 am

Bottom line Wyoming, you are drawing at straws and back peddling from your OP.

Had your OP read something like this:

Appropriate use of BOTH Quick Draws and Runners when placing both CAMS and STOPPERS in a Traditional setting is essential to keeping the rope running smoothly. Thus preventing any undue drag which can in fact cause the protection to possibly shift and become compromised leading to a possible dangerous protection failure scenario if the leader were to take a fall.

Then this would have been a worthy thread for ALL "Climbing" disciplines to take in and remind all that attention to detail will keep one alive.


26 years huh. That is funnier than the "stiff dogbone".
Last edited by Kahuna on Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:59 am

Kahuna wrote:Bottom line Wyoming, you are drawing at straws and back peddling from your OP.

Had your OP read something like this:

Appropriate use of BOTH Quick Draws and Runners when placing both CAMS and STOPPERS in a Traditional setting is essential to keeping the rope running smoothly. Thus preventing any undue drag which can in fact cause the protection to possibly shift and become compromised leading to a possible dangerous protection failure scenario if the leader were to take a fall.

Then this would have been a worthy thread for ALL "Climbing" disciplines to take in and remind all that attention to detail will keep one alive.


Well sheeit Webster, I'll make sure I have you proof read everything I write from now on. And you have yet to show me where my post was anywhere near deemed to be ridiculed the way it was.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:59 am

pvnisher wrote:Am I the only one laughing at "stiff dogbone"?


I was chuckling as I wrote it. :)
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:01 am

[quote="Kahuna"]Bottom line Wyoming, you are drawing at straws and back peddling from your OP.

Had your OP read something like this:

Appropriate use of BOTH Quick Draws and Runners when placing both CAMS and STOPPERS in a Traditional setting is essential to keeping the rope running smoothly. Thus preventing any undue drag which can in fact cause the protection to possibly shift and become compromised leading to a possible dangerous protection failure scenario if the leader were to take a fall.

Then this would have been a worthy thread for ALL "Climbing" disciplines to take in and remind all that attention to detail will keep one alive.

Backpeddling from my original post? WTF?!!! I've stuck to the fact that quickdraws are more dangerous than full lengths on trad routes this entire time!
Last edited by WyomingSummits on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:03 am

WyomingSummits wrote: And you have yet to show me where my post was anywhere near deemed to be ridiculed the way it was.


First sentence Mr. 26 years:

WyomingSummits wrote:Please, for the love of God, sport and gym climbers please STOP using dogbone quickdraws to clip into trad gear.


That is a totally inaccurate statement.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with doing so when done properly.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:04 am

Kahuna wrote:
WyomingSummits wrote: And you have yet to show me where my post was anywhere near deemed to be ridiculed the way it was.


First sentence Mr. 26 years:

WyomingSummits wrote:Please, for the love of God, sport and gym climbers please STOP using dogbone quickdraws to clip into trad gear.


That is a totally inaccurate statement.


No. It was directed at people who have never trad led. Yeah, I didn't elaborate. I'm done with this.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Burchey » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:12 am

Oh Wyoming... You'll soon learn about "arguing" with certain users.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:44 am

Burchey wrote:That's a good point - if the crack is right on the face, and the route is clean and pretty much vertical, clipping the cam directly would be fine/is often done. Seems like variation in the face or wandering nonsense is what allows the rope to start jerking around on the biner.


Which is exactly the type route Kropp was on when he took his fatal fall.

Which would lead one to believe that the second conclusion of the 2003 ANAM incident analysis is more plausible.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Kahuna » Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:57 am

WyomingSummits wrote: Your ignorance is becoming more and more clear. Do you even know what I mean by a "stiff dogbone quickdraw"? I'm not talking about a quickdraw length short runner, I mean those fricken ridiculously stiff, short, dogbone looking draws where the carabiner has little chance to rotate out of position. If you can't see the difference between that, and a doubled full length runner, and the affect they can have on a gear placement.......then my condolences to your mother.



Ah, where did you ever specifically state "stiff":
WyomingSummits wrote:Please, for the love of God, sport and gym climbers please STOP using dogbone quickdraws to clip into trad gear.


Both DMM, BD and other manu's make some "stiif" draws that have wide biner attachments which allow free rotation of both biners.

Oh yeah, my Mother is dead. She was involved in a head-on collision three years ago and killed by a Drunk Driver who is now doing 17 years in a Utah State Corrections facility for doing so.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby WyomingSummits » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:16 am

Sorry for the loss of your mother, and my apologies if you thought that reference was negative toward her in any way. As for the rest of the thread, I am done with it. I won't debate with people over technical nuances and implied meanings. You were obviously sensitive over something I said which was not intentional on my part in any way. I am done and I wish you all the best.
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Re: Trad mistakes by gym/sport climbers

Postby Burchey » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:55 am

Kahuna wrote: She was involved in a head-on collision three years ago and killed by a Drunk Driver who is now doing 17 years in a Utah State Corrections facility for doing so.


This is awful. I don't know how I could control myself from trying to kill that person.
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