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Trash in the wilderness

Minimally moderated forum for climbing related hearsay, misinformation, and lies.
 

Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby Buz Groshong » Wed Oct 06, 2010 2:30 pm

MoapaPk wrote:
Proterra wrote:The filter takes approx. 2 years to decompose in a humid marine west coast climate with an 11-month growing season.


Do you have a reference for that? I haven't seen anything.

In the desert, cellulosic materials degrade much more quickly once they are buried more than a few cm down.



Cellulose acetate isn't the same as cellulosic materials.
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby brianhughes » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:46 pm

dadndave wrote:What are these mylar balloons you speak of?


Here’s one. Find them everywhere, they can travel for miles.

http://www.summitpost.org/image/270227/153774/happy-fathers-day.html

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Re:

Postby dadndave » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:37 pm

mrchad9 wrote:
MoapaPk wrote:Saw a very-nearly-empty jetboil canister left next to a trail at 10900'. Written on it in magic marker: "Still some fuel left! Can't take it on the plane!"

No, but you could carry it back down to the dumpster.

That is an asshole. Common courtesy would leave them to deposit it in the back of a random pickup in the airport parking lot.



But not recommended if you happen to be of middle eastern appearance - unless you enjoy being strip-searched.
Stick with conservatism. It's less mentally challenging.
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby MoapaPk » Thu Oct 07, 2010 10:43 pm

Buz Groshong wrote:Cellulose acetate isn't the same as cellulosic materials.


No kidding! Read back a few entries in this thread. I'm fishing for an actual reference for the decay time of cellulose acetate filters in nature. But most things decay more quickly when buried in aerated soil, chiefly due to the much higher humidity (near saturation just 2 cm down in even desert soil), and the hungry soil biota. E.G. pack rat middens can last 10000 yrs on rock; on soil, they decay with a half-life of about 7 yrs.
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby Buz Groshong » Fri Oct 08, 2010 2:42 pm

MoapaPk wrote:
Buz Groshong wrote:Cellulose acetate isn't the same as cellulosic materials.


No kidding! Read back a few entries in this thread. I'm fishing for an actual reference for the decay time of cellulose acetate filters in nature. But most things decay more quickly when buried in aerated soil, chiefly due to the much higher humidity (near saturation just 2 cm down in even desert soil), and the hungry soil biota. E.G. pack rat middens can last 10000 yrs on rock; on soil, they decay with a half-life of about 7 yrs.


The process used to make cellulose acetate is also used to make very durable wood that is supposed to resist rot and is guaranteed for 50 years in exterior use or 25 years when used in the ground (see http://www.accoya.com). I wouldn't bet on cellulose acetate filters decaying quickly, even if burried in soil.
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby MoapaPk » Fri Oct 08, 2010 3:55 pm

Buz Groshong wrote:The process used to make cellulose acetate is also used to make very durable wood that is supposed to resist rot and is guaranteed for 50 years in exterior use or 25 years when used in the ground (see http://www.accoya.com). I wouldn't bet on cellulose acetate filters decaying quickly, even if burried in soil.


That's a start. However, specific surface area makes a huge difference. I'll make the guess that pressed wood has a much lower specific surface area than a product designed to pass air. Plus it's acetylated, not an acetate.
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby The Chief » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:14 pm

I got a better answer to this Cig Butt issue.... Don't throw em any where!

Carry em out in your pocket and dispose of em properly just like the PLASTIC WAG BAGS!

What frking concept, eh?
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby Buz Groshong » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:20 pm

The Chief wrote:I got a better answer to this Cig Butt issue.... Don't throw em any where!

Carry em out in your pocket and dispose of em properly just like the PLASTIC WAG BAGS!

What frking concept, eh?


Bingo!
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby Buz Groshong » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:22 pm

MoapaPk wrote:
Buz Groshong wrote:The process used to make cellulose acetate is also used to make very durable wood that is supposed to resist rot and is guaranteed for 50 years in exterior use or 25 years when used in the ground (see http://www.accoya.com). I wouldn't bet on cellulose acetate filters decaying quickly, even if burried in soil.


That's a start. However, specific surface area makes a huge difference. I'll make the guess that pressed wood has a much lower specific surface area than a product designed to pass air. Plus it's acetylated, not an acetate.


Acetylated wood is made by reacting wood with acetic anhydride; cellulose acetate is made by reacting cellulose with acetic anhydride. What's the difference?
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby MoapaPk » Fri Oct 08, 2010 4:50 pm

Buz Groshong wrote:Acetylated wood is made by reacting wood with acetic anhydride; cellulose acetate is made by reacting cellulose with acetic anhydride. What's the difference?


COCH3 groups versus COOCH3- in the finished product. The former usually produces a stronger bond, more resistant to biodegradation. The conditions of the reaction are different for the two products; and both probably have varying degrees of acetylization.

Chief, people don't always do what makes sense. Besides, I am more interested in cigarette butts as age markers in buried trash... and the degradation of specialty woods (e.g. resin-treated plywood). That's not really too relevant to mountains, just to my curiosity.
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby The Chief » Fri Oct 08, 2010 5:03 pm

MoapaPk wrote:Chief, people don't always do what makes sense.

Which is why I encourage the very liberal use of this instructional device when they don't....
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby butitsadryheat » Fri Oct 08, 2010 8:32 pm

The Chief wrote:I got a better answer to this Cig Butt issue.... Don't throw em any where!

Carry em out in your pocket and dispose of em properly just like the PLASTIC WAG BAGS!

What frking concept, eh?


That's what I did until I quit smoking. Field stripped and placed in the trash bag. Not difficult.
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby dskoon » Sat Oct 09, 2010 4:38 pm

Though the topic is a bit different, ie, Trash in the City, its the same: I hate seeing all these smokers in the city, throw their butts whilly-nilly, wherever they feel like it. Had a friend who would get so pissed he'd say something to the offender, but, not sure it's worth the hassle and the potential for getting in fights with defensive smokers. Anyway, I'm sure some of these same people who throw their butts into the gutter, planters, or on the sidewalk, are some of the same ones who throw 'em down in the wilderness.
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Re: Trash in the wilderness

Postby winemanvan » Sat Oct 09, 2010 5:12 pm

I ran into some white trash on my most recent hike. A group of men who had no maps, had run out of food and fuel and were asking for both. I was half way through a 14 day trip and had planned my provisions down to the very last peanut, so I felt no sympathy for them at all--and I am a proud bleeding heart liberal. It's rare to run into a group like this in the wilderness, because usually the backcountry will weed out the lazy and ill prepared. These guys had fishing gear and we were below 10,000 feet so I suggested they fish for their dinner and build a small cooking fire. When they asked to borrow some of my DEET, I decided to sleep close to my food.
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