SummitPost.org

Pickets will work well. There is some exposure for sure so pickets could be a good idea depending on your ability.

sshankle wrote:Thanks for the update Rossi! Could you get a picket in? When was this? Thanks again Rossi!

VM, thanks for the update this weekend. I hope to head in there early in the week. If I can check this from the cell just before it will be handy. Thanks again!

I'll also post conditions for Dana and NP as soon as I can from my trip (Sun - Wed ish)

Scott

Secor says Gilbert is 50-65 degrees, but I measured it at 38 (at the bottom) to 55 (at the top

And where does 55 Degs fall into that 50-65 degs?

No Bob. No smoke blowing. As you should know, the steepness of any alpine couloir depends on it's snow and melt ice content. Some portions of a couloir can in fact bulge with ice melt that freezes and collects in a short period of time. Nothing in the "Sierra Alpine Ice" world is constant Bob. Correct? It is ever changing. But one will not know that if they only visit a certain spot just once and then make a claim as you have.

How many times have you climbed the couloir in question Bob?

Also, how many times have you climbed the Left Couloir to find a ramp of built up melted water ice just below the upper chockstone thus creating a 60-70 bulge of ice in that location.

No smoke blowing Bob. Just been climbing this area in question for over 30 something years to experience the diversity of what Alpine Ice is capable of doing. That indeed is the beauty of Sierra Alpine Ice. It is never constant.

Perfect example was the Death Couloir on Morrison this late Spring. Conditions were epic for two weeks. Those conditions came in just as fast as they departed. A week long hot spill created some decent 60 plus deg ice on the lower 2/3rds of the couloir. Something we had not seen since late March of 2003. "Ice Nine" on Mendel has a history of doing the same thing. When DR and Dale did their FA, the chockstone was filled in and a large bulge was created. Forming a 70ish deg ramp under the chockstone. I only experienced this once in the twelve times I have climbed it. Last year it was completely gone. As was the "Right Side" was completely void of any neve. It was just soil and some partial patches of old dirty ice. Something I had never seen before. Nor when I reported it to some of the locals had they ever heard of that ever occurring.

I did not just climb this certain route once and then make my claim. Maybe you should get out and climb these routes more than once before making any claims and then belittling someone elses extensive area experience, BOB!

Yep. Every climb you do is 10-20 degrees steeper than when I measured it. If that isn't blowing smoke, I don't know what is.

bobpickering wrote:Yep. Every climb you do is 10-20 degrees steeper than when I measured it. If that isn't blowing smoke, I don't know what is.

Well then BOB PICKERING, I then shall tell Moynier, Secor, Harrington, DR, Bard, Chouinard etal that they also are blowing smoke. Cus their original TR's and Guide Book Info translates pretty much the same info as mine.

Yep.... they too are full of shit. I will tell them all that Bob Pickering says so cus he measured em all.

Got it.

The Chief wrote:

bobpickering wrote:Yep. Every climb you do is 10-20 degrees steeper than when I measured it. If that isn't blowing smoke, I don't know what is.

Well then BOB PICKERING, I then shall tell Moynier, Secor, Harrington, DR, Bard, Chouinard etal that they also are blowing smoke. Cus their original TR's and Guide Book Info translates pretty much the same info as mine.

Yep.... they too are full of shit. I will tell them all that Bob Pickering says so cus he measured em all.

Got it.

bobpickering measured them firsthand. The Chief got his info from a guidebook.

fight grade creep

mrchad9 wrote:

The Chief wrote:

bobpickering wrote:Yep. Every climb you do is 10-20 degrees steeper than when I measured it. If that isn't blowing smoke, I don't know what is.

Well then BOB PICKERING, I then shall tell Moynier, Secor, Harrington, DR, Bard, Chouinard etal that they also are blowing smoke. Cus their original TR's and Guide Book Info translates pretty much the same info as mine.

Yep.... they too are full of shit. I will tell them all that Bob Pickering says so cus he measured em all.

Got it.

bobpickering measured them firsthand. The Chief got his info from a guidebook.

and mr chad gets his from the internet...

Thanks for the beta everyone! I will fill you in on the conditions when we get back.

Very interesting subject and very subjective. I don't think there is any ice gully in the Sierra I did not climb (at least once) and one thing I can tell you. You climb anything in June (with a few exceptions) and it could be 80 degrees steep and it's a walk up. Climb the same couloir in September, October or November and you will find that 50 degrees can be pretty inspiring and feeling much steeper. So Bob, the degrees mean little, the conditions mean everything, snow is snow and bullet proof ice is totally different story. When Mendel right was originally said to be 60 degrees and the hardest Sierra Couloir way back some forty+ years ago, everybody kind of adjusted their steepness ideas from that. New FAs could be less steep or more steep in the climber's view. Most climbers don't carry devices to measure steepness of slope, that's pretty weird to me, we talk about conditions and steepness as compared to other climbs we did. Even Jeff Lowe stated in his ice climbing bible that Mendel right is 60 degrees and these days, there are several steeper couloirs in the Sierra then that one. So maybe you are mathematically correct, but your statement is fairly meaningless in terms of climbing ice in the Sierra.

Conditions are important, but the steepness of a couloir is only meaningless if it is incorrect.

Speaking of the right Mendel couloir, I measured it the only time I climbed it. I got 45 degrees at the bergschrund, a maximum of 63 degrees, and quite a bit of ice around 60 degrees. I'm sure it's at least 80 degrees when the Chief is there.

bobpickering wrote:Conditions are important, but the steepness of a couloir is only meaningless if it is incorrect.

Speaking of the right Mendel couloir, I measured it the only time I climbed it. I got 45 degrees at the bergschrund, a maximum of 63 degrees, and quite a bit of ice around 60 degrees. I'm sure it's at least 80 degrees when the Chief is there.

When did you do the right side Pickering?

I'm sure it is fitting to say that you never had the balls nor ability to do "Ice Nine" (left side) and measure it, right smartass Pickerieng!

BTW Pickering, if you ever grow a pair to do so, and it is in, you may just be surprised what you will encounter.

bobpickering wrote:Conditions are important, but the steepness of a couloir is only meaningless if it is incorrect.

Speaking of the right Mendel couloir, I measured it the only time I climbed it. I got 45 degrees at the bergschrund, a maximum of 63 degrees, and quite a bit of ice around 60 degrees. I'm sure it's at least 80 degrees when the Chief is there.

Everyone always BS's ice grade steepness. Its the even worse than 5.0 turning into 5.7 rock climbing chumps.

Fact, you will almost NEVER find a coulouir over 45 degrees no matter where you are as the snow won't stick. If it does it quickly vanishes.

Anyone climbing a 60 degree bulge is blowing smoke. No one gives a damn about a freaking bulge. Hell dig a 90 degree cliff with your axe and call that the max. Heck, make it overhanging! Yea. Just shows they don't climb or its their first climb and they turn into trout stories.

Its like saying Waddington in BC is 90 degree ice even though the grade is 50 degrees in a REAL guide book. No real grade counts bulges except those sandbagging in a bad direction a route because there is a severe lack of real routes to pursue. Like in the Sierra. You would be laughed out of the building in BC or Colorado with these BS "grades".

Fact, you will almost NEVER find a coulouir over 45 degrees no matter where you are as the snow won't stick.

Fact is many of the hidden extreme Sierra late summer Alpine couloirs such as Ice Nine are not "snow" dependent for their ice. It is the melt water that collects and then freezes day in and day out over a period of a couple of months that creates their AI or WI value.

Also, cruxes (being a bulge or whatever) do count when rating a route, regardless of discipline. To say that a route with a move or two at .11a but is a consistent .8 should remain at .8 is totally illogical and unsafe for those moderate climbers thinking that they are just getting on a .8.

Another reason why variable extreme conditions are vital in determining an Alpine Ice routes rating in the Sierra. Giving it the highest rating possible when conditions are just right for it to be so/in, and including any possible extreme possibilities that may occur due to those conditions, allows for an accurate and safe rating for those to consider before getting on any Alpine Ice route.

BTW, that is the governing rating standard for all Mt. Blanc Alpine routes given by the originating Chamonix Guides. Gaston speaks of this in his Guide Book for the Mt. Blanc region. The Alpine Ice ratings throughout the Alps are also indicative of this. Perfect example of this scenario is the Classic below. It varies in degree of difficulty as the season progresses. In early spring after a heavy snowfall season, it is less difficult and the difficulty increases as snow melts out and the annual summer ice begins to govern, regardless of it's sustained "steepness". Also, in dryer winters, it is at it's height in it's assigned rating of difficulty. As mentioned by Alois above in his more eloquent post regarding this standard.


But you already knew that....

The Chief wrote:When did you do the right side Pickering?

I'm sure it is fitting to say that you never had the balls nor ability to do "Ice Nine" (left side) and measure it, right smartass Pickerieng!

BTW Pickering, if you ever grow a pair to do so, and it is in, you may just be surprised what you will encounter.

Chief:

I knew it wouldn't take long for you to descend into your usual chest-beating and name-calling. What do Ice Nine and my balls have to do with the fact that you exaggerate much of what you do, including the steepness of those two couloirs on North Peak?

Since you asked, I soloed the right Mendel couloir in September 1994. It took me 1:43, including stopping several times to measure the slope.

FYI, I did have the ability and the balls to do Ice Nine. I measured 45 degrees at the bergschrund, three pitches at 70-73 degrees, and one short section at 82 degrees.

I know the difference between 42 degrees, 62 degrees, and 82 degrees. Do you?

What ever BOB PICKERING.

Like Alois mentioned, steepness really has absolutely nothing to do with difficulty.

Over and out BOB PICKERING.