Bob Burd wrote:Be careful where you're throwing the extra "+" around, because "class 4" is not the same as "class 4+". All of those routes you listed are class 5 according to Secor. But to show you how magnanimous I am, I'll acknowledge that Roper has the North Pal route as class 4. You got me.
The Chief wrote:What is really interesting to note as well is that some are insisting that the taking of a 30m vice a 50m saves weight. The totally savings is no more than 2.5 to 3 lbs. The weight of a Nalgene full of water. Thus sacrificing upwards of 33 feet of cord. 33 feet that indeed could make the vital difference in the event of an emergency and self rescue is called for.
I don't have a bunch of ropes so for me it's a choice between a 50m/10.5mm rope when I'm doing something serious (class 5, not just a summit block) or a 30m/8.5mm rope for class 4 or "just in case". The difference is significant. And while 33 feet of extra cord may make a vital difference in the event of an emergency,
it is also possible that not it having may be crucial in being able to make that lieback because my pack isn't too heavy, or being forced into an unplanned bivy because I'm too exhausted from carrying the extra weight. My point is that mountaineering involves a great many tradeoffs and it's simply impossible to say that having a 60m rope is always better than having a 30m rope.
I am not "throwing the "+"" around anywhere. Many of those routes that are Class 5 "according to Secor" were originally rated Class 4 in Voge's guide (which you know is the original Sierra guide book which was first printed and pub'd in 1954) per the Sierra Club Rating System.
Another note of interest in all this, the original Sierra Club Rating System prior to the Yose Decimal System, defines Class 4 as such (per Voge's Guide):
Ropes are needed by all for belays. Pitons may be desirable for anchoring all belays as any fall will be fatal in nature. Point, Class 4 was the top of the heap prior to the Yose System adding Class 5 in the late 50's. Thus any route established prior to the addition of Class 5 in the late 50's that would be categorized in the highest of difficulty, was rated Class 4 and they required the use of ropes by all. The standard length of hemp rope during Clyde's era was 135-150 feet in length.
Like any "+" that has been added to any number within this system, it merely indicates the fact that the route is more difficult than the lower rating number it is added to. More of a warning to those to prepare themselves for a tougher difficulty of climbing that will entail a stronger ability and knowledge to safely complete the route.
I also need to add Bob, that if 3 extra Pounds in yours or anyone's pack makes a difference between bivying and/or completing a move, then IMO, they do not belong any where near that route.
Also, the introduction of the single 30m Double rated rope came about some eight or so years ago by guides in Chamonix for glacier travel and belaying their clients up short stiffer approach sections prior to the actual selected climb. All to alleviate the cumbersome Shortening "Guide" Coil of a 50 or 60m rope. I need to add that all guides still carried a standard length rope or an additional 30m length in case of emergency and self-rescue, per their services req's.