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The National Geographic NPS maps are fantastic for this sort of thing. And you can buy them online.

The National Geographic NPS maps are fantastic for this sort of thing. And you can buy them online.

Agreed, but unfortunately the Trails Illustrated/NG map covers less than half the park.

USGS maps are required for all but the corridor and surrounding areas (unless another map has come out).

fku wrote:thanks for the replies. Looks like I'll do it the right way- go with a general plan, talk to a ranger and figure it out!!!

I think the best hikes are from the north rim. If I was going, I'd go to the Thunder River area.
Waterfalls. Slot canyons. Campgrounds with outhouses. Very nice.
You can download a geologic map of the grand canyon from the USGS web site, sorry I don't have the link, but it isn't hard to find on their web site.

fku wrote:From what i have heard there is a pretty good chance that only the south rim access will be available in mid december. Is that usually the case?

The North Rim will not be open, but that doesn't mean you can't access other points (such as Marble Canyon, etc.).

Hopefully I will not have to deal with campgrounds and outhouses although I realize I will be dealing with national park regul#!%ons.

Assuming you're looking at access via the South Rim, there are loads of opportunities that won't require exposure to campgrounds and outhouses. Some of the lesser used trails are rugged, wild and wonderful...and without a single outhouse or campground! And Marble Canyon (eastern GC) is splendid (and with fewer regulations as well, since much (all?) of it is outside the park boundary).

I see those maps online, but I really like a paper map to lay out on the floor.

I still recommend the Trails Illustrated/Nat'l Geo park map. Granted it doesn't cover much of Marble Canyon (or the more obscure far eastern or far western portions of the park), but it certainly covers the bulk of the more traveled Grand Canyon.

This is not my area of expertise, but it is my experienced-based two cents' worth of input (not that it's necessarily worth even that).

cp0915 wrote:

Hopefully I will not have to deal with campgrounds and outhouses although I realize I will be dealing with national park regul#!%ons.

Assuming you're looking at access via the South Rim, there are loads of opportunities that won't require exposure to campgrounds and outhouses. Some of the lesser used trails are rugged, wild and wonderful...and without a single outhouse or campground! And Marble Canyon (eastern GC) is splendid (and with fewer regulations as well, since much (all?) of it is outside the park boundary).

Marble Canyon is all outside the National Park, but only above the rim. In Marble Canyon, below the canyon rim, the National Park extends all the way north to the Paria River. On the east side, Navajo land meets Park land at the rim. Above the rim on the west, it's National Forest and other Anarchy Land, except north of Navajo Bridge, where it's Glen Canyon NRA.

Day Hiker wrote:

cp0915 wrote:

Hopefully I will not have to deal with campgrounds and outhouses although I realize I will be dealing with national park regul#!%ons.

Assuming you're looking at access via the South Rim, there are loads of opportunities that won't require exposure to campgrounds and outhouses. Some of the lesser used trails are rugged, wild and wonderful...and without a single outhouse or campground! And Marble Canyon (eastern GC) is splendid (and with fewer regulations as well, since much (all?) of it is outside the park boundary).

Marble Canyon is all outside the National Park, but only above the rim. In Marble Canyon, below the canyon rim, the National Park extends all the way north to the Paria River. On the east side, Navajo land meets Park land at the rim. Above the rim on the west, it's National Forest and other Anarchy Land, except north of Navajo Bridge, where it's Glen Canyon NRA.

There you have it. So you can still expect plenty of red tape...

cp0915 wrote:

Day Hiker wrote:Marble Canyon is all outside the National Park, but only above the rim. In Marble Canyon, below the canyon rim, the National Park extends all the way north to the Paria River. On the east side, Navajo land meets Park land at the rim. Above the rim on the west, it's National Forest and other Anarchy Land, except north of Navajo Bridge, where it's Glen Canyon NRA.

There you have it. So you can still expect plenty of red tape...

Although, in parts of Marble Canyon, in order to camp below the rim (inside the Park), you might have better luck with a portaledge instead of a tent.

True, although there are some spectacular primitive campsites easily accessed with a bit of rope and a harness. And some with even less.

If the weather has been dry, Toroweap on the North Rim should still be open and probably with little (relatively speaking) snow. It's about 60 miles of dirt roads. Moisture could make them slick and impassable - the BLM in Fredonia would be able to give info as most of these roads are outside the NP.

The North Rim is "open" in winter; only the highway is closed. So if you hike to it from the south, you'll be allowed to poke around. They keep a bare-bones staff up there during winter, but don't count on amenities.

The weather can go to heck in a matter of hours, so even the South Rim may be shut if you get unlucky, so to speak. I've been up there in winter snow and it's intense.

Or, you can say screw the park and permits and go in on the North Side, weather permitting, hike off Sowats Point to Kanab Creek via Jumpup Canyon ( great narrows) and enter/ exit either by Sheep Springs or Kwangut Canyon (Sp??) both very pretty and Sheep Springs has some nice camping with a good bit of water when I was there. Not sure as to access roads closed or open but I think a couple of ways to get there.

Only need a permit if you get below Showerbath Spring towards the Colorado and camp, that is the park.

Or, you can say screw the park and permits and go in on the North Side, weather permitting, hike off Sowats Point to Kanab Creek via Jumpup Canyon ( great narrows) and enter/ exit either by Sheep Springs or Kwangut Canyon (Sp??) both very pretty and Sheep Springs has some nice camping with a good bit of water when I was there. Not sure as to access roads closed or open but I think a couple of ways to get there.

Only need a permit if you get below Showerbath Spring towards the Colorado and camp, that is the park.

Good suggested hike though actually, Shower Bath Spring is well into the park. The park boundary actually runs through Jumpup Canyon and Indian Hollow themselves. You can't legally camp in Kanab Creek below Jumpup Canyon without a permit, but you may be OK camping in Jumpup if you camp on the north side of the creek, but running into a ranger down probably never happens.

The road to Sowats Point is usually closed by mid-December, but I'm not sure about the road to Jumpup Spring. The road to places like Thunder River is almost always closed then.

Probably a better December route is to come via Hacks Canyon or even Kanab Point (in good weather only).

From what i have heard there is a pretty good chance that only the south rim access will be available in mid december. Is that usually the case?

The South Rim paved road is almost always open in winter. Ocassionaly the East Entrance Road is closed, but this is rare. The road to Hermits Rest on the South Rim is also open in winter. The road on the South Rim to South Bass is often closed. The road to Havasu trailhead is almost always open then as well.

Outside the corridor area, most roads to the Marble Canyon trailheads are usually open in winter. On the North Rim, trailheads typically open include the northern Saddle Mountain trailhead for the Nankoweap Trail, the Hack Canyon trailhead for Kanab Creek, the Toroweap and surrounding trailheads, Parashant Canyon and the Whitmore Trailhead. The North Rim trailheads that are usally open in December are in fairly remote areas.

True, although there are some spectacular primitive campsites easily accessed with a bit of rope and a harness.

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