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Probably more relevant to the Northeast than anywhere else, seeing as our trail terrain is pretty uniform in that we don't deal too much with talus/scree etc. How does everyone here usually do vs. the standard White Mountains book time (2 miles = 1 hr, 1000 ft = 1/2 hr, I think). I certainly don't claim to hold any speed records; though I usually beat book time by a decent amount I feel like most people would. Did the round trip Zealand/Guyot/3 Bonds and back again hike today a smidge under 8 1/2 hours, though, pretty impressed with my time for once (book time per NH4000ers website is 12:20). I guess, as a former out of shape slowpoke (my 1st real hike 3 years ago it took me 8 hours to do the Lincoln Lafayette loop, granted in early May conditions), I'm wondering how I stack up against some of the more elite climbers of the area.



Edit: Wrote "train terrain" instead of "trail terrain" the first time around.

If you are just talking trails and no hard technical climbing then there are amazing people that can run anything, half dome has been done in less than 2 and 1/2 hours from the TH (~5000 vert and 17 miles), the Grand Teton has been done in ~3 hours, and the winner of the Western States 100 miler this year (Geoff Roes) did 100 miles and ~26,000 vertical in something under 16 hours! There are some seriously amazing trail runners out there and records are getting smashed all the time. Technical climbing is another story though.

I think terrain in the East is typically a lot harder than stuff out west.

For the two examples you gave, the trails are mostly very well graded and smooth. To get to the saddle in Grand Teton in a 1.5 hours would not be a problem and I am sure a proficient climber could easily knock out the rest of the route from there in a similar amount of time. Same thing for half dome, the first mile or more of the trail is paved. On typical northeast terrain, 30 minutes miles is actually a pretty solid pace and there is no way you could realistically "run" on most trails.

Contrast that with slippery wet rock, roots and mud that we have to deal with. I feel much safer on scree and talus because it is usually dry.

As far as the original point, I am not sure where the times come from. I think it is good for them to provide somewhat sandbag times, I would much rather plan for 12 hours and be done in 9 than the other way around.

It ain't a race. It's about having fun. So who even looks at book times?

triyoda wrote:I think terrain in the East is typically a lot harder than stuff out west.

Though I haven't done much in the northeast aside from a wet and rainy hike up Mt Washington, I would find this, uh, surprising.

Fletch wrote:My mountains are harder than your mountains.

I think we need a new thread -- top ten most dangerous terrains.

I think terrain in the East is typically a lot harder than stuff out west.

I think you will get a lot of pushback on that comment, even from those in the East. I find the mid-west has the hardest terrian in the lower 48.

Go off-trail in the NE; say, the Adirondacks. Report when you get back.

mattski wrote:by the looks of things you guys in the usa have nice approach trails with out evin a stone on them

Approach trail for Mt Wilson, NV (before the real climbing):


First Creek. No stones, just big rocks.

It all depends. If I'm packing light and tyring to go fast, I can often go about twice as fast as book time. On a winter overnight trip, breaking trail, I'm happy to equal book time. Now if I were actually fast, I'd be aiming at the record for the Pemi Loop: seven hours (book time 20:15).

As for east vs west, I'll say this: what's this word "switchback"? I've got a buddy swears he's seen a few in the East, but he believes in Bigfoot too.

nartreb wrote:It all depends. If I'm packing light and tyring to go fast, I can often go about twice as fast as book time. On a winter overnight trip, breaking trail, I'm happy to equal book time. Now if I were actually fast, I'd be aiming at the record for the Pemi Loop: seven hours (book time 20:15).

All the speed records (here and out west in CO/CA as well) are unreal. Half book time is pretty damn fast too. I fast walk when I can, so I gotta figure you're at jogging speed by that point?

MoapaPk wrote:Go off-trail in the NE; say, the Adirondacks. Report when you get back.

Trust me, I am almost more terrified of the ADK bushwhacks than I am most class 3-4 peaks out west.




The whole terrain debate, I'd definitely have to say that I think the West is tougher. I've probably never even experienced the worst of the talus of Idaho or the scree of the Absarokas, to name a few examples. Yeah, there's switchbacks below tree line, but once you're up above the trees going 1000 ft up a scree gully steeper than most non-switchbacking paths in the NE, that's pretty tough shit.

I did Mt. Powell the other month (in the Gores, one of the easier peaks of the range even). 10 miles round trip, 4200 net elevation gain (I'm convinced it's close to over 5000 if you consider all the ups and downs). Doesn't sound too back, but pretty much 90% of that elevation gain is over steep, loose terrain with poor footing. I don't think I've ever been so exhausted on a hike, even compared to more technically difficult outings (such as N Maroon or Pyramid); also another reason why I dread S Maroon, whenever I get to that.

MoapaPk wrote:Go off-trail in the NE; say, the Adirondacks. Report if you get back.

There...fixed that for ya.

I expect book times are largely published to keep beginners from biting off more than they can chew and from getting into trouble. Most experienced hikers beat them. Of course there are huge differences in pace depending upon whether you are day tripping or carrying a full pack. Re: Eastern vs. Western trails debate. Switchback? What's a switchback?

Half book time is pretty damn fast too. I fast walk when I can, so I gotta figure you're at jogging speed by that point?

Book time on flat ground is 2mph, a pretty easy walk. To do it in half the time you need to average 4mph (15-minute miles) which is a brisk walk or a pretty slow jog. You can quick-walk and not take breaks, or walk some and jog some. When there's a goodly slope (1000ft/mile), book time is 1mph, a really slow walk. To double that pace, just keep moving steadily uphill at your normal walking pace (the effort level will be higher, but the rhythm of your steps should be the same - you're not jogging, you keep a foot on the ground at all times), and don't stop for any reason. You can gain extra time by jogging on the flatter sections - you'll still experience them as restful compared to the uphills.

About that east vs west stuff: there's nothing like providing actual evidence. Think you know a rough or dangerous trail? Take a photo and add it to this album:

That's a trail??

I've seeded it with northeastern trails but I'm sure other regions could muster some good photos.