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I agree with Dow. I have worn a Precip on Rainier many times, as well as on Denali and other Alaskan peaks.

I can't speak about what you'll need for Rainier, because I've never been there. Since it sounds like you'll be doing most of your winter hikes in the Catskills, Adirondacks, and Whites, I'd stick with something cheap yet functional, like the Precip. Even on 20-degree windless days, you'll be hiking on tight trails, constantly brushing against and crawling over or under trees heavily laden with snow. The precip is probably nowhere near the best jacket out there, but it'll keep the snow from falling down your shirt, and you won't be too upset if it snags on a branch and rips!

As far as the durability of Precip jackets, mine is eight or nine years old and has never been torn or damaged through hard use, including chimneying up rough granite. I had an Arc'Teryx jacket that lasted only a couple of years before it went to the Goodwill pile due to rips and a broken zipper.

I have plenty of base layers options. I have some Nike, Smartwool, patagonia capilene 3 baselayers and will be buying a R1 hoody. I also just got a North Face Thunder Jacket, which is an 800-fill down light insulating jacket that I will have with me. I think I will be fine with my layering. I'm just trying to figure which jacket to buy.

Marmot Precip and DryClime windshirts are both on sale at www.sierratradingpost.com for $69.00 each.

What is the big difference between a lightweight 7 oz waterproof-breathable shell and a 20 oz Goretex shell. I mean if they both block wind and rain and one is half the price and half the weight shouldn't it be a no-brainer?

Also, now there are hybrid and waterproof softshells too. What is the functional difference between a waterproof softshell and a waterproof hardshell? I'm looking at the OR Mithril here.

DanTheMan wrote:What is the big difference between a lightweight 7 oz waterproof-breathable shell and a 20 oz Goretex shell. I mean if they both block wind and rain and one is half the price and half the weight shouldn't it be a no-brainer?

Honestly, very little. The Gore one might breathe better, but that is about it.

DanTheMan wrote:Also, now there are hybrid and waterproof softshells too. What is the functional difference between a waterproof softshell and a waterproof hardshell? I'm looking at the OR Mithril here.

In my opinion, there is no reason to get a waterproof softshell. The whole idea around softshells is a piece that can breathe and is comfortable. Adding a waterproof membrane to it will only make the garment less apt to breathe when you start getting hot. As a lot of the other folks have said (and what I do): Have a hardshell for when things get really gnarly (high winds, rain) and use the softshell as your outer layer (if it is cold/windy). With that said, a good windproof down sweater (Patty's for instance) could replace your softshell as a go-to piece for everyday cold and dry conditions.

DanTheMan wrote:What is the big difference between a lightweight 7 oz waterproof-breathable shell and a 20 oz Goretex shell. I mean if they both block wind and rain and one is half the price and half the weight shouldn't it be a no-brainer?

Also, now there are hybrid and waterproof softshells too. What is the functional difference between a waterproof softshell and a waterproof hardshell? I'm looking at the OR Mithril here.

durability IMO, all other things being equal .... that said, if youre going to wear yr hardshell only when things go south (bailing time), then it shouldnt matter too much

i have a dead bird 26 oz stingray wpb and a 6 oz OR helium wpb ... that saved 20 oz is only like 3 jetboil canisters , or a light belay jacket, or a pair of mitts + gloves, or a 30F down bag, or a full length sleeping pad, or a cute huggable teddy bear, etc ....

guess which one goes in the pack most of the time now

From the soft shells I've tried (TNF, Patagonia, Montbell, Cloudveil, MHW), those that are marketed as "water resistant" didn't breath much, if any. Those that were presented as "highly breathable" were a sponge as soon as the slightest mist occurred. As such, if I want breathable, I'll take an R1 hoody or similar synthetic top. If I want water resistant, I'll take a hardshell. For me, this is a classic case of "there's no such thing as a free lunch".

A soft shell that claims to be both highly water resistant and highly breathable? (I fell for the marketing early on but realized that simple physics gets in the way of such claims)

$.02 while climbing last year in colorado wearing a Marmot Precip the wind kicked up along with the rain\snow, The jacket was damn near new and I ended up soaked to the core and freezing my sack off. while wearing a climbing pack somehow the rubbing against the shoulder pads seemed to "open the fabric" in a way that it let moisture through.. 2 days after that trip I went and bought the "Crem de la crem" Alpha SV Hard Shell.... Will never look back, multiple trips and crappy conditions and the Arcteryx HS is all but bullet proof.. Buy nice or buy twice

hatidua wrote:From the soft shells I've tried (TNF, Patagonia, Montbell, Cloudveil, MHW), those that are marketed as "water resistant" didn't breath much, if any. Those that were presented as "highly breathable" were a sponge as soon as the slightest mist occurred. As such, if I want breathable, I'll take an R1 hoody or similar synthetic top. If I want water resistant, I'll take a hardshell. For me, this is a classic case of "there's no such thing as a free lunch".

A soft shell that claims to be both highly water resistant and highly breathable? (I fell for the marketing early on but realized that simple physics gets in the way of such claims)

The closest ive seen to that is the First Ascent Frontpoint jacket. It has a mix of hardshell and softshell material, its basically all hardshell except in the middle chest and middle back area where it has a very nice softshell material. The jacket breathes very well (the hardshell material is very nice so it breathes also) and since it only has a thin lining in some areas of the softshell area only so it packs small. The jacket has welded seams throughout and I have been in some very nasty weather (rain / wind) and water hasnt gotten through at all. It also has a great hood. BUT, those were day hikes. On a multi day trip I would take a hardshell unless it was a cold weather trip where there is zero chance of rain.

I also have an Outdoor Research Credo softshell jacket (no hood). It also has a thin lining and the outer softshell material is bombproof tough but stretchy and soft. Its a comfortable jacket and wicks sweat extremely well. I was caught in a rainstorm and the outer material got soaked a bit but water never got through. It also has fully welded/taped seams. This jacket is heavier than the front point and doesnt pack as small pus it has no hood so it has very limited backcountry use, you need to take a hardhsell anyway and there are lighter alternatives. So, I use it for urban situations only or car day trips.

So, I purchsed a Marmot Catalyst (Driclime Lined) wind jacket. Its an awesome piece. Windproof but wicks sweat instantly and vents very well. Very comfortable to hike in. It packs down small enough. This piece is very useful since it isnt meant to substitute a hardshell (you still need to take one) but its like a windproof fleece that breathes much better, repels moisture, wicks sweat and has underarm vents (mesh lining and different outer material in that area). It also keeps cold out better than a fleece while still venting if it gets warm. Very versatile. The outer fabric isnt as waterproof or tough as other softshells but it packs down much smaller and it is lighter. It works perfectly with just a baselayer under it.

i think that the term "softshell" is overused ... these days its for whatever the marketing folks think will sell

the original softshell was just pile and pertex designed to be worn next to the skin ... it was to simulate the fur our cavemen ancestors used to wear ... your body heat pushes the moisture out through the pile and pertex ... as long as you stayed active you stayed warm if a bit damp ... the driclime is the bet current example of this ... keep moving and yr fine

then someone got the bright idea that a softshell should keep you somewhat dry in a static situations ... now thats all fine but the problem was the pertex/pile and weave softshells dont provide enough DWR for that so they decided to sandwich membranes inside ... we all know about how well membranes work from goretex

as im sure many have found out the polartec powershield jackets are great for sitting around in belays, but youll often need to take it off on approaches unless its effing cold out there as youll sweat it out, ive had the same issue with windstopper ... either will soak out in enough rain, so you still need to pack a rain jacket in poor weather

the latest mixing of more waterproof or more water resistant membranes with breathable panels look promising ... but you often still pay the weight penalty ... they arent waterproof yet ... so you might have issues in poor weather

consider that a lot of these "softshells" or hybrids weight from 17-26 oz ... a decent windshirt 5 oz, light fleece 10 oz, and light rain jacket 6 oz is 21 oz total and way more flexibility as well as offering full water protection when needed ... seems quite a few "top" climbers use windshirts or very light softshells

of course the softshells are more durable ... but then it might be cheaper to destroy that cheap windshirt than damage that $$$$ membrane softshell

i personally only wear windshirts or weave softshells anymore ... on the other hand if im expecting the mother of all storms .. you bet im wearing the old 20+oz wpb hardshell

i love how in all the yuppie mags TNF kishwar $275 jacket "gear of the year" with polartec powershield pro is gushed over as "very breathable" ... when polartec themselves admit that powershield pro breathes LESS than normal powershield ... wonders of marketing

i do have 2 medium black dead bird gamma powershield and 1 medium black dead bird windstopper jackets in excellent condition if anyone is interested

bearbreeder wrote:i think that the term "softshell" is overused ... these days its for whatever the marketing folks think will sell

the original softshell was just pile and pertex designed to be worn next to the skin ... it was to simulate the fur our cavemen ancestors used to wear ... your body heat pushes the moisture out through the pile and pertex ... as long as you stayed active you stayed warm if a bit damp ... the driclime is the bet current example of this ... keep moving and yr fine

then someone got the bright idea that a softshell should keep you somewhat dry in a static situations ... now thats all fine but the problem was the pertex/pile and weave softshells dont provide enough DWR for that so they decided to sandwich membranes inside ... we all know about how well membranes work from goretex

as im sure many have found out the polartec powershield jackets are great for sitting around in belays, but youll often need to take it off on approaches unless its effing cold out there as youll sweat it out, ive had the same issue with windstopper ... either will soak out in enough rain, so you still need to pack a rain jacket in poor weather

the latest mixing of more waterproof or more water resistant membranes with breathable panels look promising ... but you often still pay the weight penalty ... they arent waterproof yet ... so you might have issues in poor weather

consider that a lot of these "softshells" or hybrids weight from 17-26 oz ... a decent windshirt 5 oz, light fleece 10 oz, and light rain jacket 6 oz is 21 oz total and way more flexibility as well as offering full water protection when needed ... seems quite a few "top" climbers use windshirts or very light softshells

of course the softshells are more durable ... but then it might be cheaper to destroy that cheap windshirt than damage that $$$$ membrane softshell

i personally only wear windshirts or weave softshells anymore ... on the other hand if im expecting the mother of all storms .. you bet im wearing the old 20+oz wpb hardshell

i love how in all the yuppie mags TNF kishwar $275 jacket "gear of the year" with polartec powershield pro is gushed over as "very breathable" ... when polartec themselves admit that powershield pro breathes LESS than normal powershield ... wonders of marketing

i do have 2 medium black dead bird gamma powershield and 1 medium black dead bird windstopper jackets in excellent condition if anyone is interested

You make an excellent point. I've had all the fancy big dollar softshells and short of looking stylish in Portland or Seattle they mostly suck. I've been moving further to very lightweight and stretchy and away from water proof and feature laden. I carry a lightweight rain jacket (10oz) in my pack in case of heavy rain or big wind.

Can't speak to Rainier , but given the choice between a hardshell and soft shell I'd probably go with hardshell and just layering if necessary.

Didn't see any mention of Event fabric in the discussion of hard shells. That fabric really rocks in my opinion. It breathes much better than GoreTex, so much so that most hardshell jackets made from Event don't have pit zips, they don't need them.