SummitPost.org

For the record, I have used VBL socks for 20 years with my plastic boots. I am very well aware of their advantages as well of their disadvantages. Links to online articles and that sort of thing is all well and good, but when you, lopgok/mistdaemon actually go CLIMB something significant in the AK Range make sure you report back how it worked for you personally.

Loogok/mistdaemon:
What big Alaskan routes have you climbed using this amazing VBL sleeping bag system? Infinite Spur? Moonflower Buttress? ISIS Face? Please, post up.

Vitaliy M. wrote:please enlighten us about all the advantages. Also let us know how much does one weight and how much warmer it makes you?

You can do the research yourself, but it reduces the amount of water needed, it reduces the moisture getting into your items, it reduces the additional insulation you need, etc. A negative aspect is that you have to learn to properly vent to not get sweaty, but you should do that anyhow.

The weight, as with everything, depends on what exactly you happen to use. It is like asking what the weight of a tent is, it depends on which tent, doesn't it?

How much warmer? How do you quantify that? It means you don't have to wear as much, but it also depends on whether you are active or not. I have been in freezing conditions with little else on, but if you sit and do nothing, then you will get cold real quick.

Am I correct in assuming that your answer to what you know about VB is nothing?

ExcitableBoy wrote:Loogok/mistdaemon:
What big Alaskan routes have you climbed using this amazing VBL sleeping bag system? Infinite Spur? Moonflower Buttress? ISIS Face? Please, post up.

In other words, you really don't know much about VB, even though you have used VB socks and you don't really want to admit that you don't know what you are talking about, so you want to try to deflect the real issue. Have you ever used a VBL sleeping bag? Do you actually know anyone who has?

Please tell me what your friends know about VB instead.

mistdaemon wrote:...you really don't know much about VB, even though you have used VB socks and you don't really want to admit that you don't know what you are talking about, so you want to try to deflect the real issue. Have you ever used a VBL sleeping bag? Do you actually know anyone who has?

Please tell me what your friends know about VB instead.

Read: "I haven't climbed sh#t but I read a lot of catalogues." Talk - Action = 0. And what's with the multiple avatar's?

Go climb something.

ExcitableBoy wrote:Read: "I haven't climbed sh#t but I read a lot of catalogues." Talk - Action = 0. And what's with the multiple avatar's?

Go climb something.

Typical. You don't know a thing about VB, so you try to play games and try to make the discussion about other things and when I don't play your stupid game, you don't like it and start with attacks. Your response is false with respect to me, but it correct with respect to you and VBs, all talk and no experience.

I only have one avatar, so again you don't know what you are talking about. I suspect you are trying to claim that I use two accounts, but you are wrong. Care to put money on it? Any amount, as long as you actually have to money to pay me.

So, please answer the question about VBs. If you don't know, there is nothing to be ashamed of, other than your postings which make incorrect claims about it. I can understand your not wanting to admit that you are wrong and don't know what you are talking about, your ego won't let you.

ExcitableBoy wrote:Loogok/mistdaemon:
What big Alaskan routes have you climbed using this amazing VBL sleeping bag system? Infinite Spur? Moonflower Buttress? ISIS Face? Please, post up.

I have climbed nothing in the Alaska Range. I did spend 2 weeks in Fairbanks, using my sleeping bag every day.
I have been backpacking for 30 years however. I have probably spend a year sleeping in sleeping bags.

Is the physics or physiology different in Alaska than California?
I happen to like backpacking in the desert. By using a VBL bag, I end up carrying less water, which ends up saving me weight.

You know VBL stuff works, as you have used the socks. How big a leap would it be to admit it might help for a sleeping bag?

Why are you so hostile? Someone asked what they could do to make their light bag work when it is really cold. I made a suggestion.
I provided personal experience, an explaination of the psysiology, references to Will Stegers polar exploration, and links to 3 products from mountaineering companies.
Just because your hard men buddies don't use VBL doesn't mean it is not a good idea.
I know someone who only hikes in sandals. He has climbed Mt Kenya in them. That doesn't mean he recommends that others use sandals for climbing mountains.

And I am not mistdaemon, though you seem to think so (with absolutely no evidence).
I am happy to take your money in a bet about it however.
I joined in 2008, and he joined in 2010. Do you think I used a time machine so I could have multiple avatars for this discussion? If so, perhaps you could use some help...

mistdaemon wrote:Typical. You don't know a thing about VB, so you try to play games and try to make the discussion about other things and when I don't play your stupid game, you don't like it and start with attacks.

I ask again, what big, awesome Alaksan Range routes have you climbed with your amazing sleeping bag VBL?

No? How about some math instead.

Sleeping bag VBL proponents claim they add as much as 10 degrees to the sleeping system. But first you have to take all your clothes off, except for perhaps a light base layer.

<personal anecdote>While descending a route on the South side of Mt Hunder, we ran into a storm in which the temperature dropped to -20 at night according to our thermometer. My bag was rated to +15 degrees and I had a single, 3/4 length, regular Ridge Rest pad inside an prototype MH single wall tent. With all my clothes on and my dowbn parka draped over myt bag I was pretty comofortable. That means my clothing system that I had to have anyway added in the neighborhood of 35 degress of comfort to my light sleeping bag. With a VBL the comfort rating would have been perhaps +5 at best. Where is the advantage in that? </personal anecdote>

ExcitableBoy wrote:

mistdaemon wrote:Typical. You don't know a thing about VB, so you try to play games and try to make the discussion about other things and when I don't play your stupid game, you don't like it and start with attacks.

I ask again, what big, awesome Alaksan Range routes have you climbed with your amazing sleeping bag VBL?

Alaksan Range? I bet you have not done any routes in the Alaksan Range yourself. Sorry, could not resist .

Again, address the issue at hand, not something that you want to try to attack me or others on because you don't know what you are talking about with respect to VB. What experience do you have with VBL? What experience do your friends have with VBL sleeping bags? If you don't have any experience with VB sleeping bags, why do you claim to be able to make a judgment on them? All talk and no experience?

I do see that you either got a little sense or your other post was removed for you.

mistdaemon wrote:Alaksan Range? I bet you have not done any routes in the Alaksan Range yourself. Sorry, could not resist .

What experience do you have with VBL? What experience do your friends have with VBL sleeping bags?

<personal anecdote>While descending a route on the South side of Mt Hunder, we ran into a storm in which the temperature dropped to -20 at night according to our thermometer. My bag was rated to +15 degrees and I had a single, 3/4 length, regular Ridge Rest pad inside a prototype MH single wall tent. With all my clothes on and my down parka draped over myt bag I was pretty comofortable. That means my clothing system that I had to have anyway added in the neighborhood of 35 degress of comfort to my light sleeping bag. With a VBL the comfort rating would have been perhaps +5 at best. Where is the advantage in that? </personal anecdote>

As far as my personal experience goes with VBLs is I wear them everytime I wear plastic boots. They don't add significant warmth, I wear them to keep my insulation socks dry when worn between a light liner sock. The amount of work it takes to prevent trench foot with this arrangement is significant.

BTW, I never attacked anyone, unless asking to validate their opinions with real world experience is an attack. Grow a pair. (That was an example of an attack).

lopgok wrote:Google is your friend:
http://www.integraldesigns.com/product_ ... N=78268781

No, hard won experience and judgement is my friend. Google is for computer jockies.

ExcitableBoy wrote:Sleeping bag VBL proponents claim they add as much as 10 degrees to the sleeping system. But first you have to take all your clothes off, except for perhaps a light base layer.

<personal anecdote>While descending a route on the South side of Mt Hunder, we ran into a storm in which the temperature dropped to -20 at night according to our thermometer. My bag was rated to +15 degrees and I had a single, 3/4 length, regular Ridge Rest pad inside an prototype MH single wall tent. With all my clothes on and my dowbn parka draped over myt bag I was pretty comofortable. That means my clothing system that I had to have anyway added in the neighborhood of 35 degress of comfort to my light sleeping bag. With a VBL the comfort rating would have been perhaps +5 at best. Where is the advantage in that? </personal anecdote>

How much do you know about how sleeping bags are rated? Same as what you know about VB?

Your "math" is interesting in the humor dept., but not really useful. So, you put on all your clothes, which means that if it got colder, you would have a problem. Also, all of your clothes are going to become more moist than if you did not have them on, which is not a good thing.

ExcitableBoy wrote:BTW, I never attacked anyone, unless asking to validate their opinions with real world experience is an attack. Grow a pair. (That was an example of an attack).

What about the post that was removed?

Again, you are not accurate in your statements. You were not asking to validate opinions with real world experience, you were saying that you would not listen if the person did not climb routes in Alaska.

So, please tell me how many times you have personally used a VB sleeping bag, in any way, shape or form? I have used one numerous times. This means that, unless I am wrong, I have infinitely more experience with VB sleeping bags than you. The same is true for your friends if they have not used one. So, please do validate your opinion based on your real world experience with a VB sleeping bag.

ExcitableBoy wrote:<personal anecdote>While descending a route on the South side of Mt Hunder, we ran into a storm in which the temperature dropped to -20 at night according to our thermometer. My bag was rated to +15 degrees and I had a single, 3/4 length, regular Ridge Rest pad inside a prototype MH single wall tent. With all my clothes on and my down parka draped over myt bag I was pretty comofortable. That means my clothing system that I had to have anyway added in the neighborhood of 35 degress of comfort to my light sleeping bag. With a VBL the comfort rating would have been perhaps +5 at best. Where is the advantage in that? </personal anecdote>

As far as my personal experience goes with VBLs is I wear them everytime I wear plastic boots. They don't add significant warmth, I wear them to keep my insulation socks dry when worn between a light liner sock. The amount of work it takes to prevent trench foot with this arrangement is significant.

How do you know what a VBL in your sleeping bag would have done, if you have never tried one?
I have slept outside at -20F, with no down parka or tent or bivy. It was no problem, and I was toasty warm in my VBL bag.

Keeping your socks dry does significantly keep your feet warmer. If not, why bother keeping your socks dry?
Seems like a hassle if you just have to work extra to avoid trench foot.