SummitPost.org

guhj wrote:

mountainsandsound wrote:No UIAA cert? Don't think so.

Maybe you should read up on what that STANDART cert means, instead of just dismissing it. After all, certification often costs money, and that price can be a big part of the reason why a manufacturer does not choose to have their products certified.

Apparently you have not ever taken any whippers and presented a pretty ludicrous reason not to have such an intricate safety component of ones climbing protection rack "Certified" by the UIAA.

If these nuts are designed solely on the basis of fashion and for appearance only and not to be utilized in real world climbing situ's, than by all means, save yourself the money and not have them UIAA "cert'd".

On the other hand, if these nuts are to be utilized for the safety of the climbers using them as "Protection" if and when they "whip", then this company best spend the money required to get them "cert'd". The market for safe climbing equipment requires it.

Unless of course you have a death wish or just plain stupid.


Over and Out.

guhj wrote:

mountainsandsound wrote:started moving away from Black Diamond because a lot of their shit is made in China now.

How is that a reason to not use it?

+1

myfierceblackhound wrote:the overwhelming opinion of those that have actually used them is that they are a fine addition to a rack and like every other piece of pro out there are useful in certain situations while not performing as well in some others.

IMHO it is good to see that there are so many out there that are working to continue to improve the technology, not just in this area but with regard to so many types of climbing and outdoor activities. Old habits die hard for some but as technology improves, so do techniques, and you can get out and do more and more.

myfierceblackhound wrote: For those of you dissing on plastic nuts I might suggest doing a google search on this product and read the reviews. Although no one is saying that these nuts are a game changer, the overwhelming opinion of those that have actually used them is that they are a fine addition to a rack and like every other piece of pro out there are useful in certain situations while not performing as well in some others.

I did sport... http://shop.gear4rocks.com/en/gear4rock ... nfo_9.html

Short ass 6-8 foot "Controlled" static falls at ones local crag ARE NOT whips consistent with many of the sustained longer dynamic 10-20-30 footers I have personally experienced and seen on a regular basis out in the field over the past some 35 plus years. Guessing or asking for someone else to do the math calcs as to the load taken (by the author of this review) for these controlled 6-8 foot static falls, is nothing short of prehistoric QA procedures and far from modern Certified lab analysis that the UIAA conducts.

The attached cables and swedging procedures are a major component of a stopper. It is in fact the weakest link involved. Not the actual stopper.

The manu states that their #2 upwards are rated at 13kn. And just how did that determine that? I have seen many a product come and go over the past thirty so years that claimed a higher KN rating than any UIAA Cert'd piece of pro, including Russian manu'd stuff (Gear4Rocks) such as these particular nuts, that when tested at the different labs including those of UIAA for actual strength loads, failed miserably to even come close to their claimed KN ratings.


Oh yeah, another factor that has not been considered in this prehistoric QA eval that is taken into consideration at the UIAA lab during the extensive testing phase, is the friction involved and the heat that is produced during a 20-30' dynamic and not static fall situ. The melting temps for plastic are hundreds of degrees less than the softest metal currently used for stopper manufacturing.

myfierceblackhound wrote:And chief why are you name calling and judging other people's experience levels? Do you know any of these people? We're all impressed at what a badass you are. Can we please have a conversation without you dominating it and putting everyone down?

Over and Out.

This statement from the Manu's website is totally meaningless. Anyone can post this crap to promote their product. Means absolutely nothing.

CE and UIAA Certs can not be duplicated. And that is all set forth for this exact products propaganda statement.

All equipment has been tested by "STANDART" the Ukrainian National Scientific-Certification Center in Kiev, the capital of Ukraine. Testing procedures are based on CE and UIAA standards. For Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) to be legally sold in Ukraine it must be tested by "STANDART." Upon your request we will scan and email you the image of the original testing certificate (Russian language).

http://shop.gear4rocks.com/en/nuts-stop ... od_58.html


Last word on these Ukranian Manu'd Plastic Nuts... Chernobyl.


Over and Out.

myfierceblackhound wrote:Thanks for ranting some more chief. That was fun.

Have you used them? Do you know anyone who has personally used them? Have you even handled them?

I have no way to verify any of the accusations that you make against this particular piece of pro. Neither do you. It's just, like, your opinion, man. Just because you scream it louder than anyone else doesn't mean it's correct.

Do you know of any real world failures of this gear? Many people (across the world) using these and falling on them. I don't see the bodies piling up. Why the anger and hate towards this product? Just because you don't approve doesn't mean others have to agree. Get over yourself.

Titanium Ice Screws manu'd by this exact same company ring a bell???

Ding Ding!!

Chris Harmston (past BD QA Engineer) and the late Craig Luebben, did some in depth testing some 12 or so years ago on many different ice screws, both in the BD Lab and in the field. These particular screws failed miserably and were deemed worthless and dangerous by both. Yet this same company continues to manu them with the exact same QA statement as the nuts do.

http://shop.gear4rocks.com/en/ice-snow/ ... d_156.html


BTW: I have played with these nuts... no thanks!




Over and Hound.

Ever wonder why not one product manu'd by this Company is sold/distributed by any retailer in the United States????


Liability constraints due to their (gear4rocks) not willing to have any of their products tested by either UIAA or local CE Approved (BD etc) labs.


Ding Ding.

Here is the dudes (bless his heart) bio that did the review on MP:


NickMartel is in the Partner Finder and is open to climbing with new people. Best times to climb: M,W,F,S,Su.
Personal: Lives in Tucson, Arizona, 25 years old, Male
Favorite Climbs: Prison Camp
Other Interests: Music, Bass guitar, Guitar, Dancing, UofA Basketball and Football.
Personal/Favorite web site: http://www.pointguardu.com
Likes to climb: Trad, Sport, TR, Gym climbs

Trad: Leads 5.0 Follows 5.8
Sport: Leads 5.6 Follows 5.9

http://www.mountainproject.com/u/nickmartel//107267655



Over and Out.

Please do post ALL of the "favorable" field tested reviews you are so eloquently are referring to regarding these nuts.

- Chouinard's (Not BD btw) Original Camolot's had failures and recalls?? Not one to be found on BD's Recall site. Nor, has Chris Harmston and other Chouinard & BD engineers ever recalled any Camolots since their inception, production and original delivery back in 1986. But, please do post them recalls you are referring to as well hounddog.


There is no test data as this Ukrainian manufacture will not allow the UIAA to do so and has not since it's inception. The only test data you and others have posted is from Nick dude in southern AZ that has been climbing a little over a year and acknowledges a lack of trad climbing experience.

Also, the more you post, the more you sound like... chad!

Over and out.

Nice review gabr1.

Ironic how closely hounddog and chad are posting one after the other with basically the same contents. And that "bodies piling up" statement hounddog, is the exact same verbaige old chad used several times during the 30m rope discussion.

Hmmmmm.

Figures.


Oh, never said/posted that Nick was an idiot... you did though Hounddog.

Over and out.

The Chief wrote:

There is no test data as this Ukrainian manufacture will not allow the UIAA to do so and has not since it's inception. .

No personal trad experience as of yet, but that right there would be reason enough for me to never touch these Ukrainian stoppers or any other of that company's wares.

YMMV

Many people (across the world) using these and falling on them.

Are you serious?? I have not met one normal person yet that said "Oh yeah, I will save some weight by using plastic nuts!"

That is insane. Would love to see some studies done on these, and would love to talk to people who took big whippers on these. I am not brave enough to try these out.

myfierceblackhound wrote:I believe the gentleman's name was Aric Datesman, if I remember correctly. And search for him yourself over at MP. You'll find all sorts of information about the old U stem camalots that BD would rather you didn't know.

I and all of my current and past partners, have owned and extensively used the Original two generation <C> Camolots and first generation BD U Stems with plenty of longass 20-40 foot whips and have no regrets or failures.

Also, this test you speak of, utilizes a well used .75 CAMALOT that god ONLY knows it's life history, where it has been, how many falls it has taken etc. This is not a NEW CAM.




^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Look closely at the extensive wear/worn marks on the stems of this "failed" .75

Had this been a brand new product, different story.

Thus, MOOT & BS TEST and CLAIM!

http://www.mountainproject.com/v/c4-wit ... /107215044



Over the Hound.

guhj wrote:

mountainsandsound wrote:No UIAA cert? Don't think so.

Maybe you should read up on what that STANDART cert means, instead of just dismissing it. After all, certification often costs money, and that price can be a big part of the reason why a manufacturer does not choose to have their products certified.

mountainsandsound wrote:started moving away from Black Diamond because a lot of their shit is made in China now.

How is that a reason to not use it?

True about the cert. I know organic farmers whose produce is essentially organic but not certified because it is expensive. I just think when it comes to safety, I wouldn't compromise. And like the Chief said, if this company is serious, money spent on getting certified would be well spent. I have this picture in my mind of a dude like Borat trying to explain to me the STANDART Ukrainian certification process in a thick accent...

About made in China stuff, I just think the standards and regulations are not as stringent as things made in USA, France, Britain, Italy where lots of climbing equipment is made. Having said that I know it all has a UIAA cert anyway, so I guess it might just be my bias. But I do get rubbed the wrong way when I see something made in China by BD that costs just as much or more than an equivalent product made in any of those other countries that I mentioned previously. For example, I have a Grivel ice axe (made in Italy) that costs less than the ever-popular BD Raven (made in China). Or my Wild Country cams (made in Britain) which cost the same as Camalots (made in China). What gives? I am assuming labor costs are much higher in Italy or Britain than China. Is BD just making a killing? Do they feel they need to allocate more $ to advertising? I don't know too much about the economics of it, so if someone who knows something about the industry can school me I would appreciate it.

*Sigh*, what happened to the days when people could lead 5.10 on gear without needing UIAA or CE certs -->http://www.mountainproject.com/v/106534390. Just saying