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sshankle wrote: They all take CrossFit's philosophy of high intensity crosstraining and re-direct it to address a activity specific need.

Then age and injuries starting catching up with them and they go with a more reasonable approach that would have been equally effective all along. Such is the nature of fads.

Alpynisto wrote:Then age and injuries starting catching up with them and they go with a more reasonable approach that would have been equally effective all along. Such is the nature of fads.

The guys and girls doing these programs at a high level are on the level of competitive athletes. Of course age and injuries are possible when training and performing at these levels.

Please propose a more reasonable approach, that is as effective, and we'll be talking about your program rather than these. Oh, and I'll be training on it, and you'll be able to make some money.

High intensity interval cross training is a "fad"? Thats gotta be a joke.

Alpynisto wrote:

sshankle wrote: They all take CrossFit's philosophy of high intensity crosstraining and re-direct it to address a activity specific need.

Then age and injuries starting catching up with them and they go with a more reasonable approach that would have been equally effective all along. Such is the nature of fads.

Another person chiming in who's never done Crossfit. Please describe your "reasonable approach that is equally effective all along". Having seen some 60+ year olds doing crossfit at a pretty high level, I can tell you, they are not letting age catch up with them.

Ze wrote:
You are right, I am purely speculating on injury and may be wrong. your link indicates so. I get that olympic lifts provide certain benefits, and they should. but those 'athletic' benefits aren't in line with many activities, nor important for someone who just wants to stay in shape.

I'm going to totally disagree here: I feel that olympic lifts are pretty great for just about everyone.

O-lifting builds functional strength, uses multi-joint movements, really hammers your true core (rather than just cute six-pack abs), builds bone density, works muscle groups in concert, and just makes you tougher/more durable overall.

True, you need to learn how to do it properly. But I don't see how these benefits aren't important for "someone who just wants to stay in shape". And I don't see how being stronger isn't "in line with many activities"...

Granted, super-high-level athletes of any stripe will likely shy away from O-lifting, as they are so sport-specific focused. But, honestly, how many of us on SP are throwing down cutting edge routes or qualifying for the US Tri Team?

Side note: definitely agree with bird's assessment of a dire lack of intensity from the general population's approach to exercise.

I did an experiment back in '07. I had just abandoned all lifting and began focusing on running and other LSD endurance type modes of training for about 3 months. I began growing really board of my training and got really interesting in all the GJ CF buzz. After some research I decided to stop all LSD training and do nothing but CF style workouts (normally merging CF WOD's with GJ) After 2 solid months of this i decided to test my fitness with a 8 mile run (longer than I had ever ran in my old program) I made the distance in good time. My lungs and upper body had no fatigue but my legs were noodles! I realize that if I wanted that specificity of that type endurance I had to train it. Since then I've merged 3 days of distance trail running with 2-3 days of high intensity kettlebell and O-ring workouts with a ratio of about 4hrs to 1.5hrs. I believe I have an advantage on uphills that I didn't have before. Also my upper body/core never gets fatigued on really long days. I've had no injuries. On top of the trail running benefits I'm ablto to lug heavy loads up hills with ease where before It was stop and go stop and go. IMHO CF or any similar type training combined with sport specific training is going to get any weekend warrior (that has a family and works a normal job) in the most well rounded shape possible for their sport/hobby... Just my 2 cents

psycobill wrote:I did an experiment back in '07. I had just abandoned all lifting and began focusing on running and other LSD endurance type modes of training for about 3 months. I began growing really board of my training and got really interesting in all the GJ CF buzz. After some research I decided to stop all LSD training and do nothing but CF style workouts (normally merging CF WOD's with GJ) After 2 solid months of this i decided to test my fitness with a 8 mile run (longer than I had ever ran in my old program) I made the distance in good time. My lungs and upper body had no fatigue but my legs were noodles! I realize that if I wanted that specificity of that type endurance I had to train it. Since then I've merged 3 days of distance trail running with 2-3 days of high intensity kettlebell and O-ring workouts with a ratio of about 4hrs to 1.5hrs. I believe I have an advantage on uphills that I didn't have before. Also my upper body/core never gets fatigued on really long days. I've had no injuries. On top of the trail running benefits I'm ablto to lug heavy loads up hills with ease where before It was stop and go stop and go. IMHO CF or any similar type training combined with sport specific training is going to get any weekend warrior (that has a family and works a normal job) in the most well rounded shape possible for their sport/hobby... Just my 2 cents

I think you should change your name to "totally reasonable bill"

bird wrote:I think you should change your name to "totally reasonable bill"

Should I take that as a completment? I was more thinking "randomly posts on SP Bill"

bird wrote:I think you should change your name to "totally reasonable bill"

I thought the exact same thing.

psycobill wrote:

bird wrote:I think you should change your name to "totally reasonable bill"

Should I take that as a complement? "

Yes

bird wrote:

Ze wrote:never followed the CF protocol. not saying I wouldn't though. I'm always looking to add different pieces and new variety. i've seen people doing them, and all I would say is, the keys to any successful workout program is intensity. you can go to the gym, outside on a track, picking up things in your garage, etc... and get a workout if you make the task coordinated and intense.

So your dismissal of Crossfit is based on no personal experience. Makes it pretty meaningless. Sort of like reviewing a restaurant without eating there.
Here's the thing. Most people not following CF or mtnathlete etc. don't workout with intensity. Outside your core group of mountain runners, how many people do you honestly see working out intensely? Few? None? I give props to people in spin class, a lot of them work their tails off and get pretty good results (though I believe they are pretty one dimensional), but that's about it.
Try crossfit for just a couple of months, then I'd be interested in hearing your opinion.

man what sort of BS is that? only mountain runners work out intensely? what level of athlete are you comparing? any high level endurance athlete is working out intensely.

I've seen CrossFit "done". I like work out more intensely, but that is the person, not the method. I do a variety of 'intervals' with both resistance, bodyweight, and cardio.

The point isn't that CrossFit doesn't work. I never said it didn't work. What I am saying is you can do a variety of activities- with varied levels of resistance and speed and intensity- without CrossFit, and get results.

crispy wrote:I'm going to totally disagree here: I feel that olympic lifts are pretty great for just about everyone.

O-lifting builds functional strength, uses multi-joint movements, really hammers your true core (rather than just cute six-pack abs), builds bone density, works muscle groups in concert, and just makes you tougher/more durable overall.

True, you need to learn how to do it properly. But I don't see how these benefits aren't important for "someone who just wants to stay in shape". And I don't see how being stronger isn't "in line with many activities"...

Granted, super-high-level athletes of any stripe will likely shy away from O-lifting, as they are so sport-specific focused. But, honestly, how many of us on SP are throwing down cutting edge routes or qualifying for the US Tri Team?

Side note: definitely agree with bird's assessment of a dire lack of intensity from the general population's approach to exercise.

"Stronger" is too generic of a term. One can lift large weights and increase hypertrophy but this could hinder explosive power production.

Any weight gain for Olympic explosive lifting or resistance "slow" lifting will generally hinder endurance performance.

So you are left with those that are doing it for all around benefit. Again, I'm not saying its bad, but people who are doing OL for simple all-around health could do other things. Plyometrics, other bodyweight exercises, plenty of things...They don't need olympic lifts.

psycobill wrote:I did an experiment back in '07. I had just abandoned all lifting and began focusing on running and other LSD endurance type modes of training for about 3 months. I began growing really board of my training and got really interesting in all the GJ CF buzz. After some research I decided to stop all LSD training and do nothing but CF style workouts (normally merging CF WOD's with GJ) After 2 solid months of this i decided to test my fitness with a 8 mile run (longer than I had ever ran in my old program) I made the distance in good time. My lungs and upper body had no fatigue but my legs were noodles! I realize that if I wanted that specificity of that type endurance I had to train it. Since then I've merged 3 days of distance trail running with 2-3 days of high intensity kettlebell and O-ring workouts with a ratio of about 4hrs to 1.5hrs. I believe I have an advantage on uphills that I didn't have before. Also my upper body/core never gets fatigued on really long days. I've had no injuries. On top of the trail running benefits I'm ablto to lug heavy loads up hills with ease where before It was stop and go stop and go. IMHO CF or any similar type training combined with sport specific training is going to get any weekend warrior (that has a family and works a normal job) in the most well rounded shape possible for their sport/hobby... Just my 2 cents

totally agree with this. first people need to define what their goals are and train with that in mind.

If you are doing an endurance related sport and you want to be faster, you need to focus on endurance training. Cross training needs to be added in whatever forms you feel keep you balanced, but you don't even want to make that much muscle gains from them as the weight could decrease performance.

Ze wrote:

bird wrote:

Ze wrote:never followed the CF protocol. not saying I wouldn't though. I'm always looking to add different pieces and new variety. i've seen people doing them, and all I would say is, the keys to any successful workout program is intensity. you can go to the gym, outside on a track, picking up things in your garage, etc... and get a workout if you make the task coordinated and intense.

So your dismissal of Crossfit is based on no personal experience. Makes it pretty meaningless. Sort of like reviewing a restaurant without eating there.
Here's the thing. Most people not following CF or mtnathlete etc. don't workout with intensity. Outside your core group of mountain runners, how many people do you honestly see working out intensely? Few? None? I give props to people in spin class, a lot of them work their tails off and get pretty good results (though I believe they are pretty one dimensional), but that's about it.
Try crossfit for just a couple of months, then I'd be interested in hearing your opinion.

man what sort of BS is that? only mountain runners work out intensely? what level of athlete are you comparing? any high level endurance athlete is working out intensely.

I've seen CrossFit "done". I like work out more intensely, but that is the person, not the method. I do a variety of 'intervals' with both resistance, bodyweight, and cardio.

The point isn't that CrossFit doesn't work. I never said it didn't work. What I am saying is you can do a variety of activities- with varied levels of resistance and speed and intensity- without CrossFit, and get results.

You misunderstood my post. My apologies I'll try to clarify. I am not saying only mtn runners workout intensely. Obviously a high level endurance athlete works out intensely, any high-level athlete of any kind (-chess) does. And yes, a variety of resistance and speed and intensity workouts will get you results...that's the foundation of Crossfit. For the weekend warrior type, someone with 3-4 hrs a week to commit to working out, CF will provide the most bang for the buck for general physical preparedness.

Ze wrote:

psycobill wrote:I did an experiment back in '07. I had just abandoned all lifting and began focusing on running and other LSD endurance type modes of training for about 3 months. I began growing really board of my training and got really interesting in all the GJ CF buzz. After some research I decided to stop all LSD training and do nothing but CF style workouts (normally merging CF WOD's with GJ) After 2 solid months of this i decided to test my fitness with a 8 mile run (longer than I had ever ran in my old program) I made the distance in good time. My lungs and upper body had no fatigue but my legs were noodles! I realize that if I wanted that specificity of that type endurance I had to train it. Since then I've merged 3 days of distance trail running with 2-3 days of high intensity kettlebell and O-ring workouts with a ratio of about 4hrs to 1.5hrs. I believe I have an advantage on uphills that I didn't have before. Also my upper body/core never gets fatigued on really long days. I've had no injuries. On top of the trail running benefits I'm ablto to lug heavy loads up hills with ease where before It was stop and go stop and go. IMHO CF or any similar type training combined with sport specific training is going to get any weekend warrior (that has a family and works a normal job) in the most well rounded shape possible for their sport/hobby... Just my 2 cents

totally agree with this. first people need to define what their goals are and train with that in mind.

If you are doing an endurance related sport and you want to be faster, you need to focus on endurance training. Cross training needs to be added in whatever forms you feel keep you balanced, but you don't even want to make that much muscle gains from them as the weight could decrease performance.

I agree as well. I guess we'll just have to agree to agree.

yes for sure!