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What do you expect?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:28 am
by Greg Enright
Your big adventure comes to a grinding halt. You busted your leg, or whatever, and you can't move. You need rescue.

So, what do you expect? Does your buddy go get help? Do you whip out your sat phone and call for the next available helicopter? Did you go solo, and crawl out?

It would be interesting to hear what you all think is going to happen next, and how long it's going to take. Rescue response varies around the world, so give you story the local perspective.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:37 am
by The Chief
We DO NOT want to hear my latest very sad and tragic story......

POINT: ALL SAR entities, regardless who they are, should use all and the best assets suited for the situ, which are available to them, with cost NEVER being a factor.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:05 am
by Greg Enright
I could not agree more, Rick. However, SAR teams cannot always get the resources they request due to a variety of factors.

Has your recent incident changed the way you travel in the mountains?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:12 am
by Day Hiker
The potential for the unexpected is why I always bring enough warm clothing to survive the night, even when it is just a dayhike (the only exceptions being shorter hikes). If you have a broken tibia sticking out of your leg, you aren't going anywhere fast. And it would really suck to die of hypothermia just because you had an otherwise non-fatal injury.

Even on something as non-technical and well-populated as the Whitney trail in summer, if you break your leg in late afternoon up above Trail Crest, you're going to be spending the night in 20F with just the clothes you brought. If you are not hiking solo, your partner can provide some clothing. But if you both went up as trail runners, with shorts, a long-sleeve poly shirt, and one water bottle, your partner can offer you the huge, whopping benefit of another long-sleeve poly shirt. If you're trail running solo, it's even worse.

That's why I never understood some of those Whitney trail-runner guys. Is it really legitimate to claim a super-fast time when you didn't have the proper clothing to be self-sufficient in the event of an injury -- or even just some bad weather?

Another thing I think about is Aron Ralston's accident. He spent five nights shivering in that canyon, trying to stay warm by wrapping a climbing rope around himself, if I'm not mistaken. Of course he wound up surviving, but the long cold nights added another element of complete misery to his situation. And the added physical stress on his body only worked to intensify his condition and increase his need for food he did not have. Something as simple and light as a fleece jacket and cap could have made a big difference.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:11 am
by Guyzo
Day Hiker wrote:The potential for the unexpected is why I always bring enough warm clothing to survive the night, even when it is just a dayhike (the only exceptions being shorter hikes). If you have a broken tibia sticking out of your leg, you aren't going anywhere fast. And it would really suck to die of hypothermia just because you had an otherwise non-fatal injury.

Even on something as non-technical and well-populated as the Whitney trail in summer, if you break your leg in late afternoon up above Trail Crest, you're going to be spending the night in 20F with just the clothes you brought. If you are not hiking solo, your partner can provide some clothing. But if you both went up as trail runners, with shorts, a long-sleeve poly shirt, and one water bottle, your partner can offer you the huge, whopping benefit of another long-sleeve poly shirt. If you're trail running solo, it's even worse.

That's why I never understood some of those Whitney trail-runner guys. Is it really legitimate to claim a super-fast time when you didn't have the proper clothing to be self-sufficient in the event of an injury -- or even just some bad weather?

Another thing I think about is Aron Ralston's accident. He spent five nights shivering in that canyon, trying to stay warm by wrapping a climbing rope around himself, if I'm not mistaken. Of course he wound up surviving, but the long cold nights added another element of complete misery to his situation. And the added physical stress on his body only worked to intensify his condition and increase his need for food he did not have. Something as simple and light as a fleece jacket and cap could have made a big difference.


So true.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:52 pm
by kakakiw
We had a couple of incidents here in Maine over the summer that tested everyone. The first was 2 women, woefully unprepared were climbing Hamlin Peak (on Katahdin), when the first fell and broke her knee. She had nothing with her. Her friend ran off for help. And got lost. She had nothing. It started raining. The rangers were overtaxed and started recruiting hikers in the area for assistance, even called statewide for help. The first was pulled off the mountain
and her friend was found later.
Another woman had injured her ankle and had called dispatch asking where the nearest medical facility was, dispatch pulled out the stops started calling every department in the county and a rescue was started. By the time all this was going on the local ambulance got to the scene and walked her down. I think she met the whole crew coming up to get her, but she till walked out.
It can really run the gamut, Either there is too much help or too little. It seems Maine always has too much, but it's not always the best trained people that show up.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:16 pm
by John Duffield
The Chief wrote:We DO NOT want to hear my latest very sad and tragic story......

POINT: ALL SAR entities, regardless who they are, should use all and the best assets suited for the situ, which are available to them, with cost NEVER being a factor.


That attitude is, unfortunately a major factor in places getting closed, rise in permit fees worldwide etc. It could almost be considered a metaphor for the Presidents health plan.

The people who are in control of a mountain suddenly realize they can't or won't be on the hook for that kind of open ended commitment and try to stem the flow.

The fact is, as a climbing community, we should try to minimize the ocurrence. My guess is, I'm singing to the choir, since many of the people who get into trouble don't frequent a safety concious site such as this.

Also, we should carry insurance. Many operators now carry insurance. We should try to be as responsible for this as we can.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:58 pm
by The Chief
John Duffield wrote:
The Chief wrote:We DO NOT want to hear my latest very sad and tragic story......

POINT: ALL SAR entities, regardless who they are, should use all and the best assets suited for the situ, which are available to them, with cost NEVER being a factor.


That attitude is, unfortunately a major factor in places getting closed, rise in permit fees worldwide etc. It could almost be considered a metaphor for the Presidents health plan.

The people who are in control of a mountain suddenly realize they can't or won't be on the hook for that kind of open ended commitment and try to stem the flow.

The fact is, as a climbing community, we should try to minimize the ocurrence. My guess is, I'm singing to the choir, since many of the people who get into trouble don't frequent a safety concious site such as this.

Also, we should carry insurance. Many operators now carry insurance. We should try to be as responsible for this as we can.


U. S. Military Assets DO NOT COST LOCAL GOV'T's EXTRA! Most if not all of those ASSETS/RESOURCES are more than qualified to assist in any SAR OP.

FACT!

I know... it was my job for more than 8 years of my Naval Career!
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If a SAR Unit out on a call needs the assistance of better capable local and available resource to assist them in their "call out", then, there should be no unit protocol restricting them from doing so.



As a guide, I do not have the choice in the matter of who I take out into the hills. If they in fact fall into dire straights and I need the assistance of the local SAR Unit to evac them and get them to closets med facility asap, I expect that unit to be more than capable of doing so. If they can't, then they should hand over the OP to a unit that can.

That is my point.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:01 pm
by Bob Burd
The Chief wrote:We DO NOT want to hear my latest very sad and tragic story......


Perhaps we don't, but should?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:13 pm
by John Duffield
Yes, I get this. I was a 91B20 in the Army. I've done a few. Maybe more than a few. That's larger than a UH-1.

I still think people should carry insurance if they expect the $25,000.00 dustoff from somewhere remote.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:23 pm
by The Chief
Bob Burd wrote:
The Chief wrote:We DO NOT want to hear my latest very sad and tragic story......


Perhaps we don't, but should?


Long story short....

On the way into a Langley this past July, a client of mine collapsed 2.3 miles in of a sudden onset of HAPE!

I immediately began CPR, initiated a SPOT and had contacted the local Sheriff Disp via SAT Phone and requested immediate SAR Assistance for Emergency Evac. I was told that entity was dispatched and in bound 15 minutes after commencing CPR. 1 hour and 38 minutes later and still giving my client CPR, I was informed that a CHP helo would not be available for another 3-4 hours.

I then "Pronounced" my client. Waited for 4.3 hours till the CHP helo showed up to bag and tag him then evac.

Had the local SAR requested the assistance of the readily available NAVY SAR Unit that was already on "Stand By" due to my SPOT Activation, my client may have had a "better" chance. Not likely, but better than what he recieved.

BTW, NO member of the local SAR Unit ever showed up to my pos which was no more that 35 minutes from the main and very accessible T/H.

John Duffield wrote:I still think people should carry insurance if they expect the $25,000.00 dustoff from somewhere remote.


THERE IS NO CHARGE IF NASAR THEN AFRCC dispatches a military unit with an official NASAR TASKING #!

NONE!

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:28 pm
by John Duffield
The NA stands for North America?

Re: What do you expect?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:48 pm
by MarthaP
Greg Enright wrote:Your big adventure comes to a grinding halt. You busted your leg, or whatever, and you can't move. You need rescue.

So, what do you expect? Does your buddy go get help? Do you whip out your sat phone and call for the next available helicopter? Did you go solo, and crawl out?

It would be interesting to hear what you all think is going to happen next, and how long it's going to take. Rescue response varies around the world, so give you story the local perspective.


Interesting topic...I'm sure you have lots of perspective from your own SAR experiences.

Of course what occurs is unique to each situation. My first instinct, were I traveling alone, would be to try and get my own sorry arse out. Crawl, hop, anything to take personal responsibility. Obviously I'd leave word with someone that if not home by a certain time (after providing detailed route information), start worrying. I don't have a sat phone, so that's not a solution. Were I traveling with someone else I think I'd still want to try and get myself out as long as it didn't put partner in danger. Beyond that, I suspect we'd figure out a rescue plan and I'd hunker down for however long it took. And if I'm not prepared for any of this it's my own stupidity and I'm even more likely not to involve a rescue team.

Mind you, I've never found myself seriously injured in the backcountry, at least nothing I couldn't walk out from, so if this did occur (knock on wood) I'd probably be whining for my Mama. :lol:

We have awesome SAR teams here in Colorado - given how busy they are with unprepared and/or inexperienced tourons (mostly), they are quick to respond as long as conditions don't jeopardize their safety. And if they're unavailable, calls usually go out immediately to other services for assistance.

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:47 pm
by ksolem
I expect nothing. I take no communication devices, and I am often alone. I take what I think I'll need to get through. Of course I am not guiding anyone else.

One of the reasons I quit guiding years ago was the business of not having any choice who you are with. Some folks are cut out for the guiding gig, I am not.

Of course I think when someone in The Chief's situation puts in the call if a resource is available they should get right on it. Figure out the bill later. That sounds like a colossal screw up.

To be guaranteed that a resource will be available? Anywhere, anytime?

PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:57 pm
by MarthaP
ksolem - I think that's the key word - expectation. I don't expect anything, either. But I agree - Chief got the short end of that stick. Any call from a guide would be a more than serious legit reason to get moving.

What kills me is the expectation the inexperienced have for bail-outs. I still cite the example of the crew of folks caught in a snowstorm on Long's, they took shelter in one of the huts near the Boulder Field (I think it was), then one of them got on the phone calling for an IMMEDIATE emergency hellicopter rescue. In a snowstorm. Just because they didn't know what they'd gotten into. Those are the kinds of folks who can/should really walk out, IMO.