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PostPosted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:09 pm
by mconnell
The Chief wrote:THERE IS NO CHARGE IF NASAR THEN AFRCC dispatches a military unit with an official NASAR TASKING #!

NONE!


I don't know if they still do it, but the army units from Fort Carson used to do a lot of SAR work around Colorado Springs. During one evac that I was loosely involved in, they told us that it was considered training time for them. If they weren't doing real SAR work, they would end up running simulations, which cost the same as real rescues.

My father who was Air Force SAR for many years backed this. If they didn't have real rescues to do, they would have to invent something.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:41 am
by MarthaP
butitsadryheat wrote:I don't expect anything.

But then again, I never get off the trail, and I'm never further than 10 minutes from the parking lot at the trailhead. :lol:


TOURON! :lol:

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:09 am
by The Chief
AFRCC TASKING AUTH #

Once a Fed/Military Resource receives a TASKING # from these dudes to assist a Civilian/LE SAR Unit, THERE IS NO CHARGE to any of the parties!

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:05 am
by Greg Enright
I think most people have no idea what to expect when they call in an emergency. Unless someone has spent a great deal of time in the mountains, or read many personal accounts of rescues, they would have no exposure to SAR experiences. I remember, as a kid, hearing that if you got hurt in Yosemite, you were going to get a helicopter ride. If you disappeared in the Park, there would be hundreds of searchers looking for you.

Later I learned that searches and rescues are not always that easy. Helicopters won't fly at night in the mountains and weather can make flying too dangerous. Searches often start with only a handful of searchers, then later, dozens. It is difficult to get resources, air or ground, to the Eastern Sierra. Everyone wants to help, but due to whatever circumstances, they can't always respond when you need them.

Many searches and rescues are resolved quickly and quietly during the night with only a few SAR personell finding or hauling the subject out with a wheeled litter. Those are the best calls, hiking all night, sweating like a pig hauling the litter, and you can still make it to work in the morning.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:13 am
by The Chief
With the way the population of enthusiasts is growing in the hills, I believe that we should consider starting a National SAR entity. The likes of this one which just may be the best in world at what they do....

Swiss SAR

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 7:35 am
by JasonH
Day Hiker wrote:The potential for the unexpected is why I always bring enough warm clothing to survive the night, even when it is just a dayhike (the only exceptions being shorter hikes). If you have a broken tibia sticking out of your leg, you aren't going anywhere fast. And it would really suck to die of hypothermia just because you had an otherwise non-fatal injury.

Even on something as non-technical and well-populated as the Whitney trail in summer, if you break your leg in late afternoon up above Trail Crest, you're going to be spending the night in 20F with just the clothes you brought. If you are not hiking solo, your partner can provide some clothing. But if you both went up as trail runners, with shorts, a long-sleeve poly shirt, and one water bottle, your partner can offer you the huge, whopping benefit of another long-sleeve poly shirt. If you're trail running solo, it's even worse.

That's why I never understood some of those Whitney trail-runner guys. Is it really legitimate to claim a super-fast time when you didn't have the proper clothing to be self-sufficient in the event of an injury -- or even just some bad weather?

Another thing I think about is Aron Ralston's accident. He spent five nights shivering in that canyon, trying to stay warm by wrapping a climbing rope around himself, if I'm not mistaken. Of course he wound up surviving, but the long cold nights added another element of complete misery to his situation. And the added physical stress on his body only worked to intensify his condition and increase his need for food he did not have. Something as simple and light as a fleece jacket and cap could have made a big difference.


Word.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:34 pm
by armorfoot
After the Aron Ralston incident, I've almost considered bringing a flask of Bacardi 151 JUST IN CASE. I know everyone will probably say something different (as removing body parts while under the influence is not a medically sound practice), but if I have to cut my own fucking arm off, I'm gonna be loaded while doing it.

However, I bring way more water than I think I'll need. Better to have it and not need it, etc etc. A pair of light pants, a heavy sweatshirt and poncho, my LED headlamp, and LED winder light. Also my cell phone. I've found there's a few isolated spots on the Divide where I get really good service, so I pack it for good measure.

The only injury I've received thus far was pretty weaksauce. My buddy and I were climbing on some massive boulder formation in Rampart Range. We made it to the top, no issue. However, I thought I was either Mario and Luigi and proceeded to the jump across a gap to another summit rock. I made the jump semi-successfully. I managed to clear the gap, and sprain the hell out of my knee botching the landing. It could have ended much worse, but every step felt like getting stabbed under the kneecap.

Needless to say, climbing down 800-900feet with a sprained knee is something I would not like to repeat again.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:12 pm
by The Chief
Dingus Milktoast wrote:
Greg Enright wrote:I think most people have no idea what to expect when they call in an emergency. Unless someone has spent a great deal of time in the mountains, or read many personal accounts of rescues, they would have no exposure to SAR experiences.


This has the ring of truth to it.

DMT


Unfortunately, I do know what to expect. I was one of those "Angels from the Sky" and know exactly what we/they are capable of.

Only if they are called upon so they can perform their amazing and very dedicated/well trained professional feats.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:27 pm
by Guyzo
I consider having to be rescued as the ultimate humiliation as a climber.

I think that you got into this and you need to get yourself out.

I have watched SAR in action, JOSAR to be exact, man o man it always looks like a cluster F—K and a more dangerous situation I can’t imagine. That motivates me to not have some dumb STU go down.

I think the Chief has a good Idea about a national SAR. Not too sure if another big bureaucracy is the best way to go. But some real close cooperation and standard protocol might help.

When I see people who are not prepared I always think:

“You arrogant fuck. you think you’re so cool, going it super-light super- fast just like the BIG BOYS in the mags. I know you’re going to be the first to want me to give you a jacket or a place to bivi and some hot food, after you sprain your ankle.”

And I will.
:wink:

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:43 pm
by ksolem
Switzerland is just under 16,000 square miles. One time zone...

California alone is 158000 square miles. The US is 3.79 million square miles. To propose a national SAR along the lines of the Swiss is quite a grand plan. I suspect that if such a design were undertaken, the first thing implemented would be limitations on where one could travel in the wild due to the limits of SAR capability.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:17 pm
by rhyang
So where's my Llama Hauler pic dude ? Don't you be holding out on me ! :lol:

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:21 pm
by The Chief
ksolem wrote:Switzerland is just under 16,000 square miles. One time zone...

California alone is 158000 square miles. The US is 3.79 million square miles. To propose a national SAR along the lines of the Swiss is quite a grand plan. I suspect that if such a design were undertaken, the first thing implemented would be limitations on where one could travel in the wild due to the limits of SAR capability.


Ah Kris, take a look at all the AF, ANG, CG and Naval Air Station locations throughout CA and around the U.S.

Don't need to implement anything. Just do as the Swiss do, use the military as the prime SAR vehicle. They are already in place here in the U.S. and ready to respond. All that may have to be done is add an asset or two here and there. The Bone Yard is the first place to look.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:
Guyzo wrote:I consider having to be rescued as the ultimate humiliation as a climber.


BINGO.

DMT


The Best of the Best have had to have their asses Rescued. In most of those cases, they had no control over their situ (weather. avy's etc) and had they not gotten plucked off/out, they'd be dead! They are all very GRATEFUL that the folks came to save their asses btw.

PostPosted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 5:33 pm
by ksolem
If such a system could be implemented with current assets, meaning it is largely a matter of setting up communications and protocols it is pretty hard to argue against (and people do get into trouble requiring emergency medical transport in lots of ways other than hiking and climbing.)

I just don't want to trade freedom for some sense of security.

Would it be fair to say that what happenned in your Mt Langley scenario was a failure to function of the already existing system? You say the military crew was all spun up and ready to go when they saw your spot, but never got the call from some dispatcher?