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I was raised a “strict traditional climber.” by my momma.

One of the major tenets is this:

“Don’t mess with another man’s route”

You climb it the way it was born or you walk away, simple.

But times have changed, the nature of climbing has changed, yes, even some of the most sacred tenets have changed.

My dilemma is this:

We have a local sport climbing area, “The Echo Cliffs”, 99% of the climbs were/are manufactured by gluing, chipping, hell even some “blasting” went on to make these climbs.

A climb that I like to do had some of the key holds fall off; some of these holds were good and used to make the clips.

Without these holds the crux of the climb is clipping the first three bolts, if you blow the second one, you deck for sure from about “up 25”. In short the original route is gone.

If you Top rope the climb, the line now climbs some really good stone about 6 feet to the right, it’s the natural weakness, and joins the original line about 40 feet up.

These climbs are now about 20 years old and they all have changed some and the folks who did em first never climb there anymore and have no interest in returning to do maintenance.

I did ask one of the "developers" of these climbs about this and the answer was: "I don't give a S--t..... "

Is it wrong, for me, to “fix” the climb by moving the first three bolts over?

edit for usage.

Why not compromise?

Put up a new variation, leave the old bolts in place?

nartreb wrote:Why not compromise?

Put up a new variation, leave the old bolts in place?

PS "tenant" == "one who holds", as in the person having possession of a rented apartment;
"tenet" == "something held", as in strongly held beliefs.

We have talked about doing just that. The new bolts would be like 24 inches to the right of the old ones. It would look like crap, and be confusing. The only thing that would change is that you start the climb in a little different spot.

In that case, my decidedly non-expert opinion is the same as Dingus'.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Its a crappy sport area - just fix it.

DMT

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Its a crappy sport area - just fix it.

DMT

That is what I was thinking, but it's a really nice, crappy sport place.

I go there a lot.

And thx nartreb

Lots of folks stop in at this place while traveling. A few weeks ago I watched some good climbers have a bad time on this one.

That got me thinking.

We fix the trails when they slide and change.

So just fix the climb.

I think you should probably spend the next 6 weekends fixing all the routes there.

There is that one 12c that has all the holds between the 2nd and 3rd bolts artificially cut into the rock but I can't reach the finish hold off the chopped ones, will you please chop a new hold for me while you are at it?

I think you've done all the right things first. You asked the developer (I'm assuming it's Louie Anderson, maybe Jack Tripper, though he's not quite as free with the chisel) and got they're OK so to speak. You asked the public for its input. Your changes also seem to be consistent with the ethics of that particular area. Finally, it's easy to see someone getting hurt if you don't fix it.

I think you've got a green light. What climb is it BTW?

Riverside rock quarry is the same way. I think what you have to realize is that it is an outdoor climbing gym. If you were in a gym and a hold spun you would fix it. So I would have no objection to doing the same at the quarry.

However someone doing this at tahquitz or j-tree would piss me off. Even if a necessary hold fell off a popular well established route. In that case I would vote for grade inflation where in your case I would say fix the hold.

Why are you asking...

Just go do it!

That's what I always end up doing... just doing it.

If anyone gives you any shit, put a bolt in their forehead!!!!!

>I really like this new Wolverine personae from The Chief.<

Is it ethical to Fix a climb? We'll yes, if the fixer is qualified to fix climbs.

It is not ethical to carve a hold on climb because it is otherwise too hard.

In your description it sounds like a choss-pile that is falling apart and being glued back together. I've not climbed there yet myself. Looking forward to it though.

I would've been tempted to say no, until I read your explanation.

New danger potential plus developer doesn't care plus sport route = okay to fix.

And thanks in advance!

There is only one real ethic at a crag like Echo: if you hang you did not do the climb. Everything else is by consensus with the other climbers.

But not that...

(Need a drill?)

ShortTimer wrote:I think you should probably spend the next 6 weekends fixing all the routes there.

There is that one 12c that has all the holds between the 2nd and 3rd bolts artificially cut into the rock but I can't reach the finish hold off the chopped ones, will you please chop a new hold for me while you are at it?

Jan, You know I don't roll that way.

I did watch that little Russian cute, fire that one first try!

And she was about 5.3 tall, so whats your problem?

You will need to take care of that one. But please chop it down to 5.8 please.

I guess I'll go get written permission....

Kris..... got any 1/2", 5 piece deals in your gear bag?

I'll try one more time.

The "ethic" is this: The route, once created, is climbed bottom to top without any dangling. That makes it "established." After that any changes to the route are due to wear and tear, or if done deliberately are decided by some sort of consensus.

Guyzo - you can use my drill, I hauled the rig out of the Needles day before yesterday with Randy's help. You'll have to provide the hardware though. The only 1/2" stuff I have belongs to asca.

I'll work up that Josh list for y'all in a couple daze...