SummitPost.org

Thus, falling is indeed an action not in your control. Not a result of ones action.

The absurdity of this point of view is stunning.

If you get up on a serious climb, be it ice or rock or choss, and things are not right but YOU CHOOSE TO GO ON then whatever happens after that is directly the result of your action.

I get CClaudes point about risk assessment. I just get frustrated when I see climbers use psychobabble stuff to rationalise decisions they know are risky as if they are not. Risk is fine, but come clean and acknowledge what we/you are doing.

I've crossed the line enough times myself, and spent many months in casts thinking about it. To succeed at climbing requires risk. The balance is between one's skills and one's boldness.

Chief, how many hero pics have you posted here of Gullich, Hubers, etc., doing very bold and risky ascents, landmark ascents which define climbing in their day? Yet would you say that were such a climber to fall at the wrong time it was not a result of their actions?

Now I don't spend a second thought on the decisions and actions or the potential consequences of climbers in the league of Hubers and beyond (Honnold, Lonnie K, etc.,) but I would never suggest to climbers in general that actions do not have consequences.

I never said results have no consequences. If you make poor choices, the results have tremendous and devastating results. I've had friends die while climbing (thankfully not recently and never on my watch yet) so I'm very aware of it. Also being scared when it is appropriate is important, but if it prevents you from doing the right action that is bad.

Even Arno (the author of Rock Warriors Way) says that actions without considering real world consequences is suicidal. Falling on ice is an act of stupidity. Catch a crampon and you break you leg. Falling on an easy rock climb is often an act of stupidity. When you foot catches a small ledge, you break your leg.

I did say sometimes the right choice is to run away from a climb or not even consider it. If you are not up for a climb due to experience, fitness, mental state,... doing it is an act of stupidity. The decision making process is as important as the action, often more important.

ksolem wrote:

Thus, falling is indeed an action not in your control. Not a result of ones action.

The absurdity of this point of view is stunning.

If you get up on a serious climb, be it ice or rock or choss, and things are not right but YOU CHOOSE TO GO ON then whatever happens after that is directly the result of your action.

I get CClaudes point about risk assessment. I just get frustrated when I see climbers use psychobabble stuff to rationalise decisions they know are risky as if they are not. Risk is fine, but come clean and acknowledge what we/you are doing.

Abusrd... hmmmm. I like that. Seems that fits me in a general tone.

Kris,

You are reading INTO my post.

The Chief wrote:

CClaude wrote:Off subject, but as I say, falling is a result not an action. You control your actions but not the results.

And when on extreme Ice, you are at the mercy of the conditions, trust me. Thus, falling is indeed an action not in your control. Not a result of ones action.

By that I meant that in extreme hard sport climbing, one takes repeated conscience falls in order to "work" the route. One is IN CONTROL of the falling risk etc.

My point was that in extreme thin Mixed Ice Climbing, one is clearly at the mercy of the constantly changing conditions. One IS NOT IN CONTROL of the falling risk, regardless if they make the conscience choice to climb or not. ADD: Thus, the individual is totally at the mercy of the conditions and their tools/eq/pro.
(Unless one has been in that extreme Mixed Ice environment, they clearly would not understand this point.)

A far different risk value in itself.

That point comes from this dude, and not from me, BTW!
(Many say he is not well person either. So, I do not expect anyone here to understand...)



Besides, I agree with the CC's over all statement as well as your absurdity comment.

Fact is, this entire climbing gig is surely one clear means of absurdity and has not one lick of sense value what so ever, at least to most that walk this planet that is. Thus Kris, your "absurd" comment is a totally moot point in this discussion IMO.

It's been a while since there's been a pot worth stirring on these forums.

Chief, you were not on my mind when I made my "absurd" comments.

I was just thinking about the climbing I've done. The sport climbs are mostly a blur because there was no real risk to make the occasions memorable except as a kind of collective experience, the fun of making moves, unlocking sequences, getting pumped, taking whippers on good bolts etc., and the comraderie.

I do not disagree with CClaude, Chief or Arno's writings as far as they go. But the climbs which I always remember in perfect detail are the one's which require comitting in the face of risk. And not necessarily risk of falling. For example Chief, I remember in perfect detail the climb you, Derek and I did up there with it's alpine objective hazards to spice things up.

Anyway, while I agree wholeheartedly with "The Warrior's Way," and have read it through more than once, and have applied much of the principles in my own climbing (actually years ago Arno listed me as an endorser on his website) I will still argue that there is a lot of climbing where " you control your actions but not the results" is not a thought process I would choose to follow. There are times when an action must yield a certain result.

Chief, remember when Derek slipped on pitch 3? I had led P2 which ended at a manky belay in a corner surrounded by chandeliers of loose granite. Derek was above us with no gear in yet - factor two. His action to regain control and not fall was mandatory and the result was not optional there and so he did it.

My proposition is still you control the actions and not the results. Of course there are situations where falling in specific regions of a climb is stupid but you only have control over what you do. In those situations it better be enough and if you aren't totally on your game in those areas, you are pretty stupid. But to believe that you have control over the results, that is an illusion.

I do not disagree. To believe that I have control over the results may well be an illusion. But my thought process before comitting to certain routes is that I am in control of the results. I've never been one to do death defying stunts like free solo above my solid ability, but I've soloed some and led lots of dangerous routes near my limit. In these cases my mind set is a 100% certain belief that I am completly in control of the outcome. If I cannot get into that mindset then I'll TR or sport climb.

It is an illusion, I was a bee sting or wet spot or bit of lichen in the eye or gust of wind or falling rock or pissed bird or whatever away from a bad outcome. But belief in myself and the illusion that I am in control of the result work for me.

So I guess I've been justifying my decision to do something beautifully but pointlessly stupid based on self deception rather than intellectualizing the process...

I'm not talking about loading myself up with all kinds of expectations, just finding an inner sureness which leads to solidness. Oh I dunno - I guess were all looking at the same gem from different angles.

This is one of those threads where if you don't know the OP it is really not possible to understand. Kind of an inside job. Getting "harassed" while bouldering with Shortimer is a bonding experience. You know, kind of like when dogs sniff each other? Once in a while a fight will break out but for the most part it's just business as usual.

ksolem wrote:Chief, you were not on my mind when I made my "absurd" comments.

Now that's absurd!

Definition of absurd:

Contrary to reason or propriety; obviously and fiatly opposed to manifest truth; inconsistent with the plain dictates of common sense; logically contradictory; nonsensical; ridiculous; as, an absurd person, an absurd opinion; an absurd dream.

The word in use:

"The absurd is the essential concept and the first truth."

Albert Camus

ksolem wrote:Definition of absurd:
Contrary to reason or propriety; obviously and fiatly opposed to manifest truth; inconsistent with the plain dictates of common sense; logically contradictory; nonsensical; ridiculous; as, an absurd person, an absurd opinion; an absurd dream.

In other words....




"When you reach that age, your muscles give up, they wave a little white flag and suddenly before you know it you are a fat @%@&!"... After Stevie Haston Climbs 9a Sport Route at 52.

Making my annual pilgrimage to the Jtree pretty soon -- if I see Short Timer (unlikely since he climbs like ten grades above me ) I will make an effort to pick on him

Guyzo said it right.
In my humble opinion, each one has to be aware of the joke level to do it...if you know the person somtimes is better to make a joke to break the ice!

rhyang wrote:Making my annual pilgrimage to the Jtree pretty soon -- if I see Short Timer (unlikely since he climbs like ten grades above me ) I will make an effort to pick on him

Rob, I'll be in Ryan on Friday, Sat, and Sunday with Kris. Stop by and say hi.

Sent you a PM Jan We were there last week (trip report posted on the taco). Love to hang with you guys again sometime though. Have fun V !

Vitaliy M wrote:I will be there Thursday-Sunday, if all goes as planned.

Oh, and remember your assignment -- have some good pics to post in the crack climbing thread

Chimneys and offwidths are your friends !