Page 1 of 5

Impossible Top Rope

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:05 pm
by Guyzo
Things do change in climbing as the years blow by. One of the more frustrating things I encounter when I go to popular climbing places is “Top Ropes”. Nothing wrong with that IMHO. As long as the top ropers are willing to let me pull their junk aside so I can lead the sucker.

Most folks are pretty accommodating and that is just great.

I am always willing to wait my turn while the other climbers try the TR 8)

I have observed this occurrence more and more lately.

Almost all the climbers I see are not even close to doing the climb, at all. If the climb is 5.11, none of the climbers are even getting the 5.9 opening moves. Lots of pulling on the rope gets them up to the 5.10 part…. again nothing. More pulling on the rope, gains a few more feet… lots of people yelling “awesome”…. but still nothing. :roll: :roll: :roll: :?

To me it’s very obvious that they don’t have the skills acquired to climb at that grade.

Sometimes I like to go give advice and I try to approach in a nice way and I sometimes point out this fact and I tell them this. “you need to bring your aim down a few notches, go climb something easer, when you can do that with no falls, go up one notch and repeat the no falls thing. That is how you will get the skills needed to climb harder stuff.” :)

The most common answer I get is this: I don’t know what’s wrong; I can climb 5.11 all the time in the gym.

Am I the only person who has a problem with this? :?:

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 5:57 pm
by nattfodd
If they're having fun, and as long as they're doing it safely, I don't really have a problem with that. Sure they may be missing out on something much more fun, since a clean lead will give the climber a much bigger sense of accomplishment than a TR hangdog, but if they're enjoying their day, then good for them. And even if they claim afterwards having climbed that 5.11, so what? Climbing at that level is just a game and grades should only matter to the climber himself, if at all.

What I do have a problem with, though, are people who TR a 5.11 at the crag and then think they can go lead the same grade in the mountains and get hurt. That, and people who leave their toprope all day on a line I want to climb...

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:02 pm
by kiwiw
yeah! I can toperope 12a and lead 11c in the gym! why can't I do it outside?!?!?!
seriously though, I can maybe lead 10b on occasion outside, and thrutch up on TR a 10d. Life isn't fair!!!

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:06 pm
by nartreb
Not sure this is much different than boulderers who fall off the same "project" for a week straight, or big-wall climbers who leave the ropes up for a week so they can come back and finish later. This is how some people choose to spend their climbing time. Many of them do improve this way, but so what if they don't? I guess I'd quietly disapprove if they're batmanning up the rope, but even then, style is up to them.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:17 pm
by Rocker Paully
The funniest thing I see outdoors when gymmies come to crags is they can't crack climb! They might be able to crimp the crap out of edges but they don't know what a jam is :lol:

My outdoor rock climbing far outweighs my indoor climbing but I have done enough indoors to know that it's not very comparable to actual rock.
Gym grades are overrated compared to actual rock because of :
1. The holds on your route are labeled, most Gym holds come out at you, so handholds almost always become footholds
2. Most routes, from what i've seen, are straight up jug hauls.
3. Gym holds don't make you bleed or scream in pain.
4. Gyms are hard to smear in and you lack most of the technical footwork in stemming, dime edging, and so on, that is required on 5.11 or harder routes outdoors.
5. You don't lead trad in a gym and the gym has lacks the sense of risk involved with leading a climb, such as not knowing how good the bolts are or pieces blowing and you decking on hard, uneven ground.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:21 pm
by rpc
how about this one:

city of rocks, memorial day wknd. A QD hanging on the 1st bolt of a route & an old/non-climbing couple sitting nearby. When asked if anyone's climbing the route, they respond "yes, our kids" pointing to a trio on another route 50 feet away & start calling them. One of the 3 quickly lowers, runs over & let's us know that they will be climbing the route very shortly & we have to wait.

I must've skipped the chapter on the route reservation system I guess. next time I'll be sure to call ahead and reserve all the lines we wish to do on a given weekend.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:25 pm
by fatdad
You are totally not alone. I've found this to be really annoying at places like Josh, where it's easy to set up a toprope. A small group will monopolize an entire crag, not even thinking that others might actually want to LEAD something. It's almost always gym rats or maybe a guy taking out a bunch of girls he wants to impress, something like that. I've seen the entire spectrum. Check out anywhere around the Lost Horse area on a weekend and you'll see what I mean.

Sometimes the person(s) might be cool and offer you a ride on their ropes. But when you tell them that you want to lead the route, they either don't get it or their demeanor changes and you get the 'I was here first' attitude. One time a guy (with a bunch of girls) actually let me lead the climb. (BTW, I watched them before I asked and no one even came remotely close to even reaching the crux). I and my partner took about 30 min. to lead and follow the pitch, and the guy gets all irritated that I took all day. Whaaa..?!

Unfortunately gyms are alot like bike shops selling mt. bikes. The give them the tools to go outside, but completely fail to educate them about ethics, sharing resources, etc.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:47 pm
by ksolem
Actually this business of flailing on toprope on climbs which are out of reach is having an impact on many routes in joshua Tree. The rock there becomes altered by climbers with lousy footwork repeatedly slipping off the same foothold, and hand holds erode and break when abused by climbers who are not skilled enough to understand that certain features need to be used gently.

I can name many frequently tr'd routes in Josh which have sufferred from this practice. Most recently I was astounded to see the damage to the start of the classic .11d arete "Split Personality."

Even when they don't actually wear out the route, these top roping crews could at least have the courtesy to spend a few minutes brushing their copious amounts of chalk - most of it off route - off the holds so the next leader to come along has a chance.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:57 pm
by HeyItsBen
Last time I was at Josh, a group of 5 people had 5 TRs set up on the Atlantis Wall :twisted:

Re: Impossible Top Rope

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:14 pm
by rhyang
I can climb 5.11 all the time in the gym.


I wish :cry: :cry: :cry:

:mrgreen:

Re: Impossible Top Rope

PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2010 10:36 pm
by mconnell
Guyzo wrote:The most common answer I get is this: I don’t know what’s wrong; I can climb 5.11 all the time in the gym.


Reminds me of a "5.12 climber" that we saw bail a few years ago. He chickened out on the Class 3 approach. (Yes, Bob. I know I bailed as well but at least I made it part way up the climb!)

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:26 am
by Mark Straub
I think it's fine. Hogging an entire crag or hogging a route for a long time is not acceptable, and tearing off holds is definitely not acceptable, but working a toprope in an area where nobody else is currently climbing (and falling, that's one of the reasons why you have the toprope up, isn't it?) seems fine to me. I don't get much better by climbing at the grade I won't fall on. I get better by trying things above my abilities to figure out how to climb them cleanly and efficiently after falling on them.

-Mark

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:55 am
by fatdad
Mark Straub wrote:I think it's fine. Hogging an entire crag or hogging a route for a long time is not acceptable, and tearing off holds is definitely not acceptable, but working a toprope in an area where nobody else is currently climbing (and falling, that's one of the reasons why you have the toprope up, isn't it?) seems fine to me. I don't get much better by climbing at the grade I won't fall on. I get better by trying things above my abilities to figure out how to climb them cleanly and efficiently after falling on them.

-Mark


True, Mark, but the issue here, in part, are topropers not making space for other climbers. Also, I alot of the old farts (most of whom climbed pretty hard in their day) got real good without resorting to top roping climbs you would otherwise lead. At a place like Tahquitz or Suicide, how are you supposed to throw a toprope on a 3 to 5 pitch climb? You don't. You get better on lead.

When I was 15, I jumped from leading 5.8 to 5.10b in one day at Josh without having to toprope. In the spirit of full disclosure, I did toprope, but it was at areas like Mt. Rubidoux, where it's pretty much just bouldering and TRing, so you don't get in anyone's way. It was actually a great apprenticeship because when I sacked up and started going for it on lead, I had lots of practice building good anchors I could trust because of the toproping.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:06 am
by Guyzo
Mark Straub wrote: ....... I don't get much better by climbing at the grade I won't fall on. I get better by trying things above my abilities to figure out how to climb them cleanly and efficiently after falling on them.

-Mark


Very true. :)

But, Mark, I was trying to point out the fact that so many people can't do the opening moves, well below what will be found at the dam crux. You have it right when you point out the "cleanly and efficiently" part. That is at the core of hard rockclimbing.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:19 am
by Andinistaloco
No, you're not the only person it bothers. I've noticed it too, although the areas where I've noticed it are (thankfully) still few and far between out here. But I've definitely been to crags where folks had 3-4 top ropes on a wall and were flailing up one or two of them and often not even using the other one. Sad state of affairs, I'd agree. I'm not sure what kind of solution is forthcoming, either... hopefully folks will just learn etiquette and manners and whatnot, through experience.

It kind of reminds me - in an odd way - of bar pool etiquette. Almost anyone who goes to bars knows there are certain rules for the pool table... winner stays, challenger pays and racks, etc. But every once in a while someone will show up with their buds, put like $20 worth of quarters on the table, and think they're just going to sit on the table all night. Doesn't happen often, but it does happen. I like to think that the gentle admonition given by some of my friends and I helped wake some of those folks up to etiquette.