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RickF wrote:The older professional, career types who enjoy climbing and mountaineering have committed a large part of their steady income to support their families and maintain a comfortable standard of living. They have a lot of nice gear but not as much time available for adventure as they would like.

^^^This iz korrekt.

If you wanna have plenty of money for gear/climbing trips, I strongly urge you not to have kids. (They expensive!) Wives, too.

Of course, you'll be missing out on the myriad joys of marriage and parenthood. Your call.

RickF wrote:Climbers and mountaineers are a still a small minority of society. Most of my middle-class friends, aquaintences and colleages spend most of their time and money on motorcycles, quads, buggies, jet-skis, boats, toy-haulers and motor-homes.

^^^Also korrekt.

I'm always surprised when friends complain about having "no money" but yet fail to see all the cash tied-up in their "toys" sitting in the garage, shed and driveway (or in a storage locker that they're paying $100+/month for)...

One of the things I like about climbing is that, for the most part, if you buy good quality, the gear lasts a long time. (Soft goods like ropes and slings that should be periodically replaced notwithstanding.) My partner still uses his rigid-stem Friends that he was climbing in the Gunks with back in the 80's, though I think I've convinced him to finally replace some of his many BD Ovals with a wiregate or two...

Compare this with a motorhome or a boat which, besides filling up with gas every weekend, you need to make payments on, pay insurance for, make repairs on, etc.

ForeignTraveller wrote:From an economic standpoint, I think climbing is just like golf in that generally there is a good mix of people that participate. Some go out with decades old or borrowed clubs and some pay out the ass to play at exclusive country clubs with thousands of $ worth of the latest equipment.

And, just like in golf, spending thousands of dollars on the latest equipment doesn't necessarily mean you'll perform any better!

I've been reminded over the past year that there are massive costs (for people in the US at least) when injuries occur. I've incurred thousands of dollars in expenses for medical treatment that wouldn't have resulted if I had just sat at home.

Back in the 1970s I was a dirtbag Yosemite Park Bum for several years.

I slept where ever I could find a place to sleep. Sometimes under a pickup truck in the Lodge parking lot, sometimes out in the Camp 4 boulder field, sometimes in the back of my VW.

When my VW blew up, I hitch-hiked everywhere.

We lived out of the dumpsters, collecting food and cans are 4 o'clock in the morning, to sustain us through our day of climbing. I was an expert at scarfing in the lodge carfeteria.

We even figured out how to take cans from the recycling collecting bins and turn them in again.

We learned how to steal showers at Curry company.

I could live on $250 a year. When I needed new gear, I resorted to dealing to support my habit during the winter months (i.e., worked at the North Face shop in Cupertino selling climbing gear).

When money and desperation got really bad, we drove to Reno and gambled to make more money. You could spend 2-3 days drinking beer continuously at the blackjack or roulette tables, dine at all-you-can-eat buffets for $3.95 and make another $100 to $200 to get you through another few more months in Yosemite.

Yeah, we were dirt poor.

Interesting topic.

I'd argue that the biggest factor deciding who becomes a climber isn't social class, but whether or not they want to be a climber. I know the OP wasn't really talking causation, but I am anyway.

I realize there are <sometimes vast> expenses associated with equipment, but SP has members who live in their tents and others who are quite wealthy. It's probably not all that an abnormal distribution.

At the end of the day, we're talking about external definitions of ourselves vs. self-definitions. Society and statistics might say you're rich or poor, but you're the one who decides if you're a climber.

Borut Kantušer wrote:
Well... money makes things comfortable.

Basically a hiker needs a raincoat, and a climber needs the light rubber shoes.
my 2 cts.

And that's how I roll, college has me in the lower class now, but once I get out and get a few years into my career, more gear will come. Its all about fun, not what country you have bagged mountains in.

I think it was Chuck Pratt who said this.

“At both ends of the economic spectrum lies the leisure class”

gk

Mark Straub wrote:Similar to the "climbing=white person's sport" thread, I have noticed that almost all of the climbers I encounter are middle-class. There are exceptions, as I have climbed with some more wealthy people and I have a friend I climb with who is fairly poor, but for the most part, climbers seem to be middle-class.

It seems this has fluctuated throughout time. When mountaineering became popular in the mid-1800's, it was all for very wealthy people. In the 1950's, many of the pioneering climbers seemed to be very poor. Now, it seems I hardly see anyone who isn't right in the middle class.

Any ideas?

-Mark

I´m extremely and seriously upper class, just fallen on hard times that´s all.

Guyzo wrote:I think it was Chuck Pratt who said this.

“At both ends of the economic spectrum lies the leisure class”

gk

Hey, I already said that. And DMT is right. It was Eric Beck. Is that blurb from Climbing in North America?

Choosing the dirtbag lifestyle for any kind of long haul is pretty committing and takes motivation and focus to say the least. Being wet, cold, and on your umpteenth week of PB & J or noodles has it's downsides. BUT then again, diving into a passion isn't for the faint-hearted. Just think how many of us could(would) be the climber of their dreams if they were willing to eschew the comforts/securities/trappings of so-called "normal" people, and do something like hang at camp 4 for a couple/few seasons. It would be interesting to hear from the retired dirtbagger/freespirit of yesteryear and the current clan living their dreams to compare how things have changed. Decades ago Jack Kerouac wrote that the hobo lifestyle was getting harder and harder to escape the spotlight of the law...bet it's even harder now-a-days. Let's face it, we live in a class based society and that fact is not taught (or ignored) for the most part as we grow up. It's nice that something like climbing and getting outside has the potential to help break that down a little. So in the spirit of that thinking a little shout out to BOTH the oppressed worker AND the corporate pigman: "happy adventures to both". Even though I'll pretty much heart with the worker, when you share a rope in some sense you are equal...so Climbers of the World UNITE!! [/img][/list][/list][/code][/quote]

After reading the multiple entries on this topic, I noticed that several of the responders equated class with wealth. This is a common observation in the US. I have lived happily in the USA for 30+ years even though I still have a "foreign" accent. I also have noticed that when meeting someone new in the States, the first 3 questions often asked are: where are you from? where do you live? and what kind of work do you do? actually really asking: how much money do you earn?

This last question is NOT often ask when encountering other mountaineers, especially in Europe where it is might be considered rude. It is my experience that sharing mountaineering experiences is the great EQUALIZER. I have been often enjoyed climbing or skiing tours of several days duration and wasn't asked at all " what kind of work " I did.

In the Alps, guides typically address you by your first name during the entire encounter which is quite different from normal social interactions in urban environments. This certainly the case in German or French speaking countries.

In conclusion, rather than describing climbing as upper or middle class endeavors, I consider mountaineering the great democratizing experience, where money, class, rank is ignored for those precious hours or days of sharing nature!!!

JanG wrote:After reading the multiple entries on this topic, I noticed that several of the responders equated class with wealth. This is a common observation in the US. I have lived happily in the USA for 30+ years even though I still have a "foreign" accent. I also have noticed that when meeting someone new in the States, the first 3 questions often asked are: where are you from? where do you live? and what kind of work do you do? actually really asking: how much money do you earn?

This last question is NOT often ask when encountering other mountaineers, especially in Europe where it is might be considered rude. It is my experience that sharing mountaineering experiences is the great EQUALIZER. I have been often enjoyed climbing or skiing tours of several days duration and wasn't asked at all " what kind of work " I did.

In the Alps, guides typically address you by your first name during the entire encounter which is quite different from normal social interactions in urban environments. This certainly the case in German or French speaking countries.

In conclusion, rather than describing climbing as upper or middle class endeavors, I consider mountaineering the great democratizing experience, where money, class, rank is ignored for those precious hours or days of sharing nature!!!

I would agree with that wholeheartedly! My friends in the mountains are house painters, car mechanics, doctors, scientists, insurance salespeople - in fact everything from a-z. It doesn´t matter in the least. What´s great about this great levelling is that one meets wonderful people who often have something to give me from their lives!
We are all "per du" in the mountains. Cheers

Well, I gotta say, I pretty much fit into the poverty-line standards, so here is one poor climber.

After doing some math I figure that all my money goes right to bills, gas, and food. Looks like I'm not turning in this health insurance packet. Haven't had any in years

JanG wrote:After reading the multiple entries on this topic, I noticed that several of the responders equated class with wealth. This is a common observation in the US. I have lived happily in the USA for 30+ years even though I still have a "foreign" accent. I also have noticed that when meeting someone new in the States, the first 3 questions often asked are: where are you from? where do you live? and what kind of work do you do? actually really asking: how much money do you earn?

This last question is NOT often ask when encountering other mountaineers, especially in Europe where it is might be considered rude. It is my experience that sharing mountaineering experiences is the great EQUALIZER. I have been often enjoyed climbing or skiing tours of several days duration and wasn't asked at all " what kind of work " I did.

In the Alps, guides typically address you by your first name during the entire encounter which is quite different from normal social interactions in urban environments. This certainly the case in German or French speaking countries.

In conclusion, rather than describing climbing as upper or middle class endeavors, I consider mountaineering the great democratizing experience, where money, class, rank is ignored for those precious hours or days of sharing nature!!!

You sound like a real nice, down to earth guy, but I have to state that, like lots of Europeans, your observations about Americans vs. Europeans is off.

Europe is one of the most class conscious cultures anywhere, even when compared to places like India, where they're burdened by the caste system. In Britain, class is immediately distinguished by the type of accent you have. The English refrain from using names like Sean, since it would suggest an Irish heritage, which is deemed lower than English. The notion of having evolved from an aristocracy (or not) is very common in places like France. European languages even have two forms of "you", a formal and informal.