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Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:59 pm**

yet another viewpoint....

is it possible that those people knew they were a**holes, seen as such from others, and therefore chose a lifestyle away from the "masses" because they could not stand to be confronted with their own personality all the time.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:08 pm**

SoCalHiker wrote:
The Chief wrote:Whether you or anyone else accepts or ordains this philosophy, is/was not important. They got it and that is all that mattered.

And why do you think that philosophy is the one to strive for

It is individualism at it's best.

Influencing others to strive for this lifestyle, not at all. These individuals never even considered that aspect within their lives. They just lived it.

Just as Picasso, Di Vinci, Einstein and many other individualist throughout human history never contemplated what others thought of them and their passion. They just focused 100% in the direction they chose to then did it. That is the beauty of it. Whether one agrees or disagrees with it, matters not a thing.

"Confronted with their own personality"? They cared less. Their passion, vision and focus did not care nor include whether or not they met other peoples certain standards or criteria. They just did what their hearts and gifted abilities allowed them to.

Yabo certainly brings back some very fond memories of this intense spiritual focus. As did JB the last 5 or 6 years that he walked/climbed this planet.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:18 pm**

The Chief wrote:
SoCalHiker wrote:
The Chief wrote:Whether you or anyone else accepts or ordains this philosophy, is/was not important. They got it and that is all that mattered.

And why do you think that philosophy is the one to strive for

It is individualism at it's best.

Influencing others to strive for this lifestyle, not at all. These individuals never even considered that aspect within their lives. They just lived it.

Just as Picasso, Di Vinci, Einstein and many other individualist throughout human history never contemplated what others thought of them and their passion. They just focused 100% in the direction they chose to then did it. That is the beauty of it. Whether one agrees or disagrees with it, matters not a thing.

"Confronted with their own personality"? They cared less. Their passion, vision and focus did not care nor include whether or not they met other peoples certain standards or criteria. They just did what their hearts and gifted abilities allowed them to.

Yabo certainly brings back some very fond memories of this intense spiritual focus. As did JB the last 5 or 6 years that he walked/climbed this planet.

But we here talk about them, we here express our opinion about them.. I understand that they did not care of how others seem them and they have the right not to care of course. But we here talk about of how we see them...

Would I like to be able to climb like them..... of course

Would I like to be an asshole.... of course not.... and not because I don't want others to see me that way ( I couldn't care less either)... no it's because I don't want to see myself as one

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:26 pm**

I would never want to climb like them or anyone else for that matter. I only want to climb how I climb and why I chose to do so.

Something that these few certain individuals in the past infused into their climbing. They set their own standards of climbing. That is what made them special, regardless if they were or were not, "assholes", IMO.

Something to consider, climbing is truly and individualistic endeavor. It has nothing to do with any definition of a sport. Nothing. Like an artist creates a painting or a sculpture, a climber creates a work of themselves through a route that they set upon and complete. No sport entailed there. Rather creativity of ones inner most spirit.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:28 pm**

you sound like a real douche bag to me! sorry, if this offends you... but you put yourself out there.
I don't rock climb. my self diagnosed A.D.D. doesn't allow me to spend too much time in one spot or on one mountain. therefore I'm a backpacker, on and off trail and up to the top of mountains and peaks via class 2-4 routes. I spend a lot of time up in Sequoia & Kings Canyon Natl. Parks (30 miles from my house) and go right by some hidden big walls and beautiful boulders. I often think that it would be cool to see the view from up there, but I cannot control my wanderlust and keep moving. so it's people like you that make me happy I'm not a rock climber. I would never want to be associated with that type of elitism.
you give rock climbers a bad name and the sport a black eye...

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:33 pm**

SoCalHiker wrote:
The Chief wrote:Really? You certainly never had the opportunity to meet this dude at the crag. Probably the best "Rock Climber" to have ever walked this planet and will remain in the history journals as such. But, in reality, to most that met him once at any crag he was working on, he was certainly the most arrogant, self-centered and insulting/condescending dude that they ever met. Only those that really knew him, knew different....

Chief, I think there exactly lies another problem in our culture/society that bothers me a lot. No doubt I can respect and admire such a person for his climbing skills. That however does not give him the right to be an asshole to others. He can of course do whatever he wants but others will see him as such. You have to be able to differentiate between his enormous skills as a climber and his shitty personality. You can admire him for the first thing, but you should disrepect him for the other. Being good at something does not give you the right to act like an asshole.

Btw, that same attitude underlies the celebrity worship in this country. People admire somebody for his talents (acting, sport, ...) and start idolizing him/her even though he/she might be the worst person.

I believe that picture is of John Bachar. He broke his neck in a car accident about a year before me. I am a nobody, and yet he sent me a card and a grip trainer and numerous training / recovery tips. I regret that I never had the opportunity to meet him personally before his death in 2009. I've read that he mellowed considerably with age.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 7:41 pm**

iHartMK wrote:you sound like a real douche bag to me! sorry, if this offends you... but you put yourself out there.
I don't rock climb. my self diagnosed A.D.D. doesn't allow me to spend too much time in one spot or on one mountain. therefore I'm a backpacker, on and off trail and up to the top of mountains and peaks via class 2-4 routes. I spend a lot of time up in Sequoia & Kings Canyon Natl. Parks (30 miles from my house) and go right by some hidden big walls and beautiful boulders. I often think that it would be cool to see the view from up there, but I cannot control my wanderlust and keep moving. so it's people like you that make me happy I'm not a rock climber. I would never want to be associated with that type of elitism.
you give rock climbers a bad name and the sport a black eye...

A perfect example of the misperception of an ideal that I speak of. This is not meant one iota as an insult to your post either.

"I believe that picture is of John Bachar. He broke his neck in a car accident about a year before me. I am a nobody, and yet he sent me a card and a grip trainer and numerous training / recovery tips. I regret that I never had the opportunity to meet him personally before his death in 2009. I've read that he mellowed considerably with age."

It wasn't with age. Rather with his acceptance of his true mortality after his car accident that you speak of Rob, in which his business partner, tragically died. That incident was the life changing impact he may have needed in order for him to seriously re-evaluate how he acted towards others and how he saw himself in the reality of it all.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:06 pm**

Steve1215 wrote:------

Seems to be some confusion about what I meant in my original post. I wrote it fast and used a few generalities, of course.

I expressed dismay about the modern climbing scene, using some loose generalities. Nothing stays static, and climbing became big business, abetted by technology and the convenience and safety of sport climbing—which quickly attracted “the masses” into the sport. When you have more people in the sport, odds are that a greater percent (than before) will be flakes and goofballs; but that’s not to say that a percent will also be great climbers and “pure adventure climbers.” It was members of my old school generation, after all, that quickly accepted the new technologies and also promoted the sport climbing revolution, which to me devalued the true spirit of climbing (though I have done a few 5.10-5.12 sport routes myself.)

I think my post was mostly out of nostalgia for my youth, and a period in climbing that was very pure and adventurous, imo.

----

But technology has only changed how the adventure is expressed but not adventure. Case in point is when I belayed Mike Sokoloff (both of us self-proclaimed weekend warriors) when he bypassed the bolts on the crux pitch of Shangri-la in Sedona (nothing big in the big picture of things since its only a .12d 5 pitch route) he did so because the Black Diamond C3's made it possible with their very narrow head. Was it adventurous.... we had no clue if the sizes 000 to 0 would hold in the sandstone (and since he didn't fall we still don't know but I'll tell you later this year). In the bigger picture of things, people are still finding that adventure. Alex Honnold's free solo of Moonlight Buttress is a monumental example of that as is Reardon's solo of Romantic Warrior.

As for nostalgic..... snap out of it man. You are what, 5 years older then I am. Go get some. You are still plenty young (assuming some injury hasn't taken you out of the game).

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:09 pm**

The Chief wrote:
rhyang wrote:I believe that picture is of John Bachar. He broke his neck in a car accident about a year before me. I am a nobody, and yet he sent me a card and a grip trainer and numerous training / recovery tips. I regret that I never had the opportunity to meet him personally before his death in 2009. I've read that he mellowed considerably with age.

It wasn't with age. Rather with his acceptance of his true mortality after his car accident that you speak of Rob, in which his business partner, tragically died. That incident was the life changing impact he may have needed in order for him to seriously re-evaluate how he acted towards others and how he saw himself in the reality of it all.

You are probably right (I never knew him). I would argue however that these kinds of events are what often mellows people with "age" -- it isn't merely the passage of time. I'd bet this is particularly true for those of us who esteem things like ideals, focus and drive over the opinions of people whom we perceive as not really understanding us, and perhaps have a stubborn streak.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:10 pm**

Fletch wrote: And Chief, whether you want to admit it or not, you are nice guy...

SHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSH! What the fk are you trying to do, ruin my misperceived SP arrogant asshole image???

BTW, it was JB's incredible methodology of mental and physical recuperation & training that has in fact allowed me to come back to a level of climbing performance so that I can climb ice as hard as I did prior to my injury two years ago to the day. I am really looking forward to this spring. Got some pretty adventurous FA plans for the Williamson area.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:14 pm**

If it was better style to keep your mouth shut, then why are you opening it now to spray about how humble old timers were? Seems to me that it is hypocritical to be brag about humility.

If old timers really did have this quiet humility, then this thread wouldn't exist.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:18 pm**

The Chief wrote:SHUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUSH! What the fk are you trying to do, ruin my misperceived SP arrogant asshole image???

By "misperceived" you must mean "carefully constructed"

The Chief wrote:BTW, it was JB's incredible methodology of mental and physical recuperation & training that has in fact allowed me to come back to a level of climbing performance that I can climb ice as hard as I did prior to my injury two years ago to the day.

Awesome.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:27 pm**

So on the subject of name-dropping, I met Jim Donini at Pinnacles National Monument back in November. This is a guy who has climbed some amazing stuff in his lifetime, and here he was at our local chosspile

We were having lunch at the Discovery Wall, and an older gentleman asked to borrow our guidebook -- said he was from Colorado and wanted to find something for his grandkids to climb. I noticed his Scarpa approach shoes and being a complete gear whore asked him what he thought of them. He said he liked them, and also mentioned how much he liked Scarpa Techno's.

Something about this clicked and I asked his name -- I'd read his praises of the techno's on supertopo. Nice guy.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:32 pm**

rhyang wrote:So on the subject of name-dropping, I met Jim Donini at Pinnacles National Monument back in November. This is a guy who has climbed some amazing stuff in his lifetime, and here he was at our local chosspile

We were having lunch at the Discovery Wall, and an older gentleman asked to borrow our guidebook -- said he was from Colorado and wanted to find something for his grandkids to climb. I noticed his Scarpa approach shoes and being a complete gear whore asked him what he thought of them. He said he liked them, and also mentioned how much he liked Scarpa Techno's.

Something about this clicked and I asked his name -- I'd read his praises of the techno's on supertopo. Nice guy.

And you will find that he will probably remember your name the next time he meets you. I ran into him ice climbing in Ouray. I saw him again about 5 years later and he still remembered us as with 10yrs after. Go figure since I figure he probably meets 5000+ of us weekend warriors a year.

Posted: **Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:34 pm**

mvs wrote::D By "misperceived" you must mean "carefully constructed"

Ah, you had something to do with this I believe Michael..... http://www.summitpost.org/the-owens-gor ... ief/465098

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