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Western Alps Grouping Structure

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Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby Gangolf Haub » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:39 pm

I have been amused by the excitement (and insecurities) the new version of SP has evoked in many SP-members, obviously concentrating on what is most dear to us all - the potw, revenge votes, vote padding, furunculi (hehe), elves, message boards, whatever.

The one thing I have been bothering about when I first read that there would be a new version is the new - and as far as I can understand - better opportunities at grouping and structuring the pages. There will be objects for group pages and logistical center pages and the opportunity to attach children pages to mother (or father) pages. Putting aside the logistical centers (we don't have them in the Alps, maybe the Cortina Dolomites could qualify, Moni's Sächsische Schweiz Page would be a better example) I think we should try to agree on a grouping structure for the Alps at least.

With the eastern Alps - thanks to Vid's page and the efforts of several members who put up the groups we are in a pretty good shape. For the western Alps however the structure is still missing completely. I remember having read a discussion about this on this board somewhere but I couldn't recall on which thread. Therefore I would like to restart the discussion here.

Thanks to the better structuring the eastern Alps didn't pose too much of a problem. There might have been disagreements (Cima Bocche comes to mind) but they were rather minor in nature. With the western Alps this is much more difficult. The dividing passes and valleys aren't as deeply pronounced as in the east and each national Alpine Club has created own listings, often varying sharply in the degree of detail.

Now for SP I would envision a western Alps page which should be a counter-product to Vid's page with the possibility to attach groups and pages as children as well as link to them with an interactive map and / or links and tables. What remains is an agreement about the structure and I would like to start the discussion with a grouping detailed by Johannes Führer. He separates two large regions, the inner and outer arc of the Alps. I include the highest summits as many of you might not be aware of the (German) names. I think we need more detail, especially in the Valais and Graian Alps (which have already been broken down) but we might start with this (or something similar) as the rough structure. The next step would be to break everything down one step further and the remainder can be done and proposed by the actual maintainer / submitter.


<big><b>Inner Alpine Arc (Main Ridge)</b></big>
<table><tr><td>Ligurian Alps</td><td>Pointe Marguareis</td></tr><tr><td>Maritime Alps</td><td>Cima Argentera</td></tr><tr><td>Cottian Alps</td><td>Monviso</td></tr><tr><td>Thabor Group</td><td>Aiguille Méridionale d’Arvres</td></tr><tr><td>Graian Alps</td><td>Mont Blanc</td></tr><tr><td>- Charbonnel Group</td><td>Pointe de Charbonnel</td></tr><tr><td>- Vanoise</td><td>Pointe de la Grande Casse</td></tr><tr><td>- Paradiso Group</td><td>Gran Paradiso</td></tr><tr><td>- Rutor Group</td><td>Aiguille de la Grande Sassière</td></tr><tr><td>- Mont Blanc Group</td><td>Mont Blanc</td></tr><tr><td>Valois Alps</td><td>Dufourspitze</td></tr><tr><td>Leone Group</td><td>Monte Leone</td></tr><tr><td>Gotthard Group</td><td>Piz Rotondo</td></tr><tr><td>Ticcino Alps</td><td>Basódino</td></tr><tr><td>Adula Group</td><td>Rheinwaldhorn</td></tr><tr><td>Ceneri Group</td><td>Pizzo Tambo</td></tr><tr><td>Varese Prealps</td><td>Monte Generoso</td></tr></table>

<big><b>Outer Alpine Arc (Main Ridge)</b></big>
<table><tr><td>Provence Prealps</td><td>Signal de la Sainte Baume</td></tr><tr><td>Provence Alps</td><td>Tête l’Estrop</td></tr><tr><td>Drôme Alps</td><td>L’Obiou</td></tr><tr><td>Lubéron Group</td><td>Grand Lubéron</td></tr><tr><td>Ventoux Group</td><td>Mont Ventoux</td></tr><tr><td>Désert Group</td><td>Le Duffre</td></tr><tr><td>Vercors Group</td><td>Grand Veymont</td></tr><tr><td>Devouly Group</td><td>L’Obiou</td></tr><tr><td>Pelvoux Group</td><td>Barre des Écrins</td></tr><tr><td>Belledonne Group</td><td>Grand Pic de Belledonne</td></tr><tr><td>Chartreuse Group</td><td>Chamechaude</td></tr><tr><td>Bauget Alps</td><td>Pointe d’Arcalod</td></tr><tr><td>Bornes Alps</td><td>Pointe Percée</td></tr><tr><td>Chablais Alps</td><td>Haut Cime (Dents du Midi)</td></tr><tr><td>Bernese Alps</td><td>Finsteraarhorn</td></tr><tr><td>Freiburg Alps</td><td>Vanil Noir</td></tr><tr><td>Emmental Alps</td><td>Brienzer Rothorn</td></tr><tr><td>Uri Alps</td><td>Dammastock</td></tr><tr><td>Schwyz Alps</td><td>Piz Russein</td></tr><tr><td>Appenzell Alps</td><td>Säntis</td></tr></table>

I would be <b>very</b> interested in the Italian, Swiss and French thoughts and standpoints. I'm talking about your countries...
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby Gabriele Roth » Thu Jan 12, 2006 6:57 am

Gangolf, can You wait some days ?
Western Alps structure is made (and usually known) of some big ranges :
<li>Alpi Marittime
<li>Alpi Cozie
<li>Alpi Graie
<li>Alpi Pennine
<li>Alpi Lepontine
inside these ranges there are many groups and subgroups ... but I think that they could be well defined and described using some pages of logistical centers (the main valleys) and, of course, pages of subgroups ...
let's talk about it :)
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby Gangolf Haub » Thu Jan 12, 2006 8:19 am

<i>Gangolf, can You wait some days ? </i>
Yes, I have waited two years, some days don't make a difference :-)

<i>let's talk about it :)</i>
That's exactly what I'm asking

Let's break every thing down by two more levels, for instance:
Alpi Graie
- Gran Paradiso Group
- - Gran Serra Subgroup
- - Taou Blanc Subgroup
- - ...whatever...
- Rutor Group
- - Grande Sassière Subgroup
- - ... whatever ...

I don't want to get everything stuck because we're getting too detailed and cannot agree
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby marco979 » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:47 am

A. Marittime
dal Colle di Cadibona al Colle della Maddalena
A. Liguri, A. del Var
Argentera
(3.297 m)

A. Cozie
dal Colle della Maddalena al Colle del Moncenisio
Gruppo del Monviso, A. del Monginevro, Catena del Cenisio
Monviso
(3.841 m)

A. Graie
dal Colle del Moncenisio al Col Ferret
Gruppo del Gran Paradiso, A. della Tarantasia, Gruppo del Monte Bianco
Monte Bianco
(4.810 m)

A. di Provenza
dal corso del fiume Verdon all’alto corso del fiume Durance
Gruppo dell’Asse, Gruppo della Bléone
Trois-Évêchés
(2.927 m)

A. del Delfinato
dall’alto corso del fiume Durance al medio corso dell’Isère e dell’Arc
Gruppo del Champsaur, Gruppo del Pelvoux, A. di Moriana
Barre des Écrins
(4.103 m)

Prealpi di Provenza
tra il Mar Mediterraneo, il fiume Var, il corso medio del Verdon e il basso corso della Durance
Chaînes des Plans, Montaigne de Sainte Victoire, Sainte-Baume, Monts des Maures, Estérel
Sainte-Baume
(1.154 m)

Prealpi del Delfinato
tra il medio corso della Durance e quello del fiume Isère
Mt. del Lubéron, Mt. di Valchiusa, Massiccio del Dévoluy, Vercors
Grande Tête de l’Obiou
(2.790 m)

Prealpi di Savoia
tra l’alto corso del fiume Isère, il lago di Ginevra e il tratto del fiume Rodano compreso tra Martigny e il lago di Ginevra
A. dello Sciablese, Chaîne du Reposoir, Les Baujes, Grande Chartreuse
Dents du Midi
(3.257 m)

---- I'm looking for a classification on the web, sounds good! --- I'm asking OM help for the French part ---
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby Gabriele Roth » Thu Jan 12, 2006 11:51 am

I think that if the goal is
<li>to make people understand where and how to go to climb a mountain - best structure is for valleys (logistical) : in logistical pages all the subgroups and the links to the single mountains pages can be well managed (see my vallespulga page)
<li>to make a geographic work, but not easy to be understood by the ones that don't know the area - best structure is for groups and subgroups and mountains
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby Mathias Zehring » Thu Jan 12, 2006 9:52 pm

I have read that the Fuehrer system (though Gangolf certainly has it from my website) is in some parts not accepted in Italy / France / Switzerland.
At some occasions I have mentioned the effort of Marazzi who tries to combine the different opinions in one system:
The link in the web is <a href="http://www.fioridimontagna.it/it/frame/fr_90_soiu.htm">here</A>. I don't like all of his results and it is a bit complicated, but it is a good basis for discussion.
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby mulidivarese » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:12 am

Dear Gangolf,

I guess that it could be reviewed a bit your clasification:


Valois Alps Dufourspitze
Those are called Penninian Alpes from the Gran San Bernardo to the Simplone Pass. Morevoer the Mountains between Teodulo and Passo di Monte Moro (Joderpass, I guess) coould be grouped as Monte rosa group.
And finally, I guess that it is better also consider the Vallisian Alpes the mountains norther than the main ridge, and in this case the Dom of Mischabel will be the highest one.

Leone Group Monte Leone
Gotthard Group Piz Rotondo
Ticcino Alps Basódino
Adula Group Rheinwaldhorn
(allt ogheter are the Lepontine Alpes), but I guess that Ticono and Adula could be grouped togheter as Ticino Alpes (with Adula).

Ceneri Group Pizzo Tambo
Pizzo tampo is still in Lepontine Alpes (of the Graubunden-Italian Side). And Ceneri it is very far away form tambo.

Varese Prealps Monte Generoso: Sorry: this is wrong. I live in Varese and there are other higer mountains such as the Monte Tamaro 1961m
And there are all the mountains between Ceresio and Verbano Lake.

With kind regards

MdV
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby Gangolf Haub » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:42 am

<i>though Gangolf certainly has it from my website</i>

hehe, he hasn't - he looked it up in a book :-)
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby mulidivarese » Fri Jan 13, 2006 8:56 am

I guess that maybe it could be good more than a "scientific classification" or a tassonomic one, a functional classification (as it is used now in the biomedicine field).

The classification proposed by CAi it is also very good and quite "classical" and match quite well with the Sweitz one.

Regards

MdV
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby Gabriele Roth » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:12 am

I've started the page.
Now we can discuss about a better structuring ....

Olivier has sent me an email with these (precious) info that I will follow...

<b>French Préalpes, from north to south:</b>
Chablais
Bornes
Bauges
Chartreuse
Vercors-Drôme
Devoluy including Trièves, Bochaine and Gapençais
Provence ranges (In fact, this mountains are not part of the Alps)

<b>French Alps, from north to south:</b>
Aiguilles Rouges
Mont Blanc
Beaufortain
Vanoise (east od Madeleine pass road and between Isère and Arc valley, +
High Isère and High Arc valleys )
Grandes Rousses (east of Belledonne, south of Arc river, north of Briançonnais, west of Modane)
Belledonne And Lauzière
High Dauphiné Main Alps (All between Romanche valley, Guisane- Durance
valley, Drac valley)
Briançonnais (Guisane valley, Clarée valley, east of Durance valley except Queyras)
Queyras (Guil valley)
Ubaye (Ubaye valley + north of Parpaillon)
Haute Provence Alps ( Blanche valley, Sasse valley, Bléone valley, Asse
valley, Verdon valley)
Alpes Maritimes (Var valley)

any further suggestion ?
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby desainme » Mon Jan 16, 2006 2:08 pm

Om's remarks to me and I assume he may elaborate further:

What i can suggest to get coherent sections in French Alps :

French Préalpes, from north to south:


Chablais
Bornes
Bauges
Chartreuse
Vercors-Drôme
Devoluy including Trièves, Bochaine and Gapençais
Provence ranges (In fact, these mountains are not part of the Alps)


French Alps, from north to south:

Aiguilles Rouges
Mont Blanc
Beaufortain
Vanoise (east of Madeleine pass road and between Isère and Arc valley, +
High Isère and High Arc valleys )
Grandes Rousses (east of Belledonne, south of Arc river, north of
Briançonnais, west of Modane)
Belledonne And Lauzière
High Dauphiné Main Alps (All between Romanche valley, Guisane- Durance
valley, Drac valley)
Briançonnais (Guisane valley, Clarée valley, east of Durance valley except
Queyras)
Queyras (Guil valley)
Ubaye (Ubaye valley + north of Parpaillon)
Haute Provence Alps ( Blanche valley, Sasse valley, Bléone valley, Asse
valley, Verdon valley)
Alpes Maritimes (Var valley)
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby Gabriele Roth » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:49 pm

Mark,
I've tried to fit these new info I got from You and Om ... but as for actual new Alps partition I cannot find the fit points ... (I've used the <a href="http://www.aiigvarese.it/Soiusa/soiusa.htm">SOIUSA</a> fot the startup)
I'd like to have some references between the Group you suggest and the ones I posted
Thanks
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Re: Western Alps Grouping Structure

Postby desainme » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:19 pm

I'm putting this up to view it.

PT. I. ALPI OCCIDENTALI

SR. I/A. Alpi Sud-occidentali

SZ. 1. Alpi Liguri (Alpes Liguriennes)

SZ. 2. Alpi Marittime i.s.a. (Alpi Marittime e Prealpi di Nizza; Alpes Maritimes d.l.s.l.)

SZ. 3. Alpi e Prealpi di Provenza (Alpes et Préalpes de Provence)

SZ. 4. Alpi Cozie (Alpes Cottiennes)
Queyras and Ubaye
SZ. 5. Alpi del Delfinato (Alpes du Dauphiné)

SZ, 6. Prealpi del Delfinato (Préalpes du Dauphiné)
Chartreuse and south is Vercors Devoluy including Trièves
Bochaine and Gapençais
SZ. 7. Alpi Graie (Alpes Grées)[Beaufortain are western extensn]
Vanoise is also part of the Graian Alps southwest extension?
SZ. 8. Prealpi di Savoia (Préalpes de Savoie)
include the Bauges Alps
SR. I/B. Alpi Nord-occidentali [Mont B. & Aiguilles Rouges]
Bornes Apses here or do you regard them as PreSavoy Alps?
Grandes Rousses
SZ. 9. Alpi Pennine (Alpes Pennines; Penninische Alpen)
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