Report those dead birds to the CDC -- could be West Nile virus !!

yuppies ...

outdoor gear is no longer about using it ... its all about looking cool to belong to a certain group

this holds true for free gear to sponsored climbers, outdoor/backpacker/climbing mag reviews, gear "awards" and yes even blogs

how many times have you seen a critical review?

The problem today is that we have been inundated with industrially mass-produced cheap goods, so our perception of fair value is skewed. If all manufacturers around the world produced on a small-scale in environmentally and socially responsible way (fair wages), all those $5 t-shirts would cost way more. I know the $100 pants I bought from a local climbing store not only will fit good, keep me warm in cold and cool in warm weather (I practically live in them year around - climb, hike, warm weather ice climb), will outlast $20 pants from Walmart, but also will help pay wages to dirtbag climbers who work at the local store and in distant Ventura, CA and $1 from it will help some good environmental cause. And the logo - you could barely see it.

welle wrote: If all manufacturers around the world produced on a small-scale in environmentally and socially responsible way (fair wages), all those $5 t-shirts would cost way more.

I would definitely prefer to buy t-shirts made in the USA; so far that hasn't worked out well. At least I pay a guy in the USA to do the printing.

I have a friend who was in the Peace Corp in Thailand, and tries painfully hard to "do the right thing." Once we had a discussion about companies that come to Thailand and exploit people to make cheap goods, yada yada yada. He commented, to my surprise, that those were some of the best jobs in the country, that most westerners were hopelessly naive about what the people would otherwise be doing. His claim was that many young women in those small villages turn to part-time prostitution to make a living... unless they can work in a factory.

My grandmother worked in a sweatshop during the Great Depression, under fairly brutal conditions. However, she had been raised by the Gray Sisters in an orphanage in a Mohawk reservation in Quebec, and what she experienced there was so horrible that the sweatshop seemed benign in comparison.

This thread is drifting away...

Who cares what people wear or what they climb? If it makes you happy and you aren't hurting anyone, who cares. Get out, climb whatever you want, wear whatever you want, and have fun!

Right on gilbo!

As a finance guy in NYC that likes to climb and generally run around outdoors like an idiot, I will never be close to as good as 99% of the others on here.

SP helps get me from trip to trip (often months apart) while you guys and gals are out there living it.

Bottom line, why be judgemental? Just know that most of you have the technical expertise and experience to know better than to waste money! Next time you see a gomer like me say, "nice jacket, but I'd recommend ___ next time around!" Buying the overpriced gear (for me) is part of the fun, but who doesn't love a deal!

I assure you, the advice will be much appreciated!

Dow Williams wrote: If someone is buying $800 bags, how does he/she have different bags for different conditions? i.e. Moab vs Canadian Rockies?...summer vs winter?

This is a bit like asking "if someone buys a $3M home, how do they afford a car to put in the driveway?"

Dow Williams wrote:How come all I ever meet out there on the rock or ice are dirtbaggers who can barely afford a cup of joe, much less afford these premium hollywood climbing brands? Who are these folks who spend $500 on jackets and $800 on sleeping bags? Do they climb routes above 5.6?

Dow, aren't you sponsored by Osprey and OR? I mean that is what I gathered from a post of yours some time ago...or do you mean something else by the "special thanks" in your bio? Out of curiosity, how much of your gear have you bought for retail?

Are you upset about bad climbers who buy new gear? Seriously, I've never met you but I find that really curious. When you've replaced your gear, do you only climb routes above 5.6 until the stuff is dirty or what? Or are you upset about companies trying to make money while making technical gear?

I'm confused about what you find offensive and I really wouldn't mind knowing. Is it inflation? Do you think that companies are overcharging?

As for wearing out my jackets, well, I'll quote a mentor:
"As far as paying extra for heavily reinforced garments to prevent them wearing out, I answer honestly that I have never worn a jacket out."

He states on the same page (91) that "Professional, hard-core users wear things out...I can't and don't." Now product development has definitely followed the path that Mark opened and became lighter, but I still don't wear out a 'gucci puffy or similar. It might be covered in seam grip after a season or two and it might not look professional, but I'm not a guide and I don't care about how it looks and it sure as shoot isn't worn out.

I've got to say that I know a LOT of really strong climbers who can't afford a cup of joe but can save their shekels to get the gear they feel will help them succeed. I also know people who are probably excited by the continuation of the tax cuts on high income earners. It's like the guy wrote: If you have a paid off $3mm house, why ask if you own a car? If you don't own a car, it's probably by choice...

Personally, I really don't care what the folks next to me at the crag or in a parking lot have in terms of material possessions or whether they're hard men or lazy punters or something in between. I love the spirit of community and the camaraderie of having fun climbing.

Who sells a IDFL 900 fill power puffy vest for $80? I'd be stoked to get one at that price...

FortMental wrote:What the hell is that, anyway... the outdoor lifestyle?

The outdoor lifestyle was invented by the aforementioned companies to allow them to continue to exist. They realized that folks who are outside all the time either get prodeals or use seamgrip and they couldn't pay their bills.

Hence, 20+ tee shirts and 20 hats in every company's portfolio. It's the sales of 'outdoor lifestyle' which allows for us to pick stuff up on our discount websites...

FortMental wrote:Nobody uses gear to failure anymore. If they did, they would realize how full of shit most manufacturers are.

I hope they don't use rock climbing gear to failure.

I go through about two pairs of approach shoes, and one pack, per year. Perhaps they aren't totally failed; but big rips in packs (like between the shoulder blades) and worn-thin fabric, and flat or flapping soles on trail runners, usually signal time to look for another deal. The culprit is usually abrasion from siliceous limestone, volcanic rock, and sandstone chimneys. I've gotten used to treating packs and light sticky-rubber shoes as expendable commodities.

I go through at least 4 tubes of seam-grip a year, and at some point, a new pack and boots look cheaper than additional repairs. I used tool dip for some time, but it is fairly heavy and not as strong, and goes bad before I use it all.

people use gear to failure all the time ... every use shoes, light merino base layers, torn pants, etc ...

no one should use climbing gear to failure as the margin for safety should be very great ... unless you used a certain cam

the thing with the outdoor gear industry, is that they are there to sell you more, more and more ... even when there is no real practical benefit?

how do they do this? ... by claiming every year that their newest products are better, getting poor sponsored bums to, getting enough fans on their fbook page and forums that will rip you a new one if you say anything critical about their product, by getting their old buddies at the mags to write a "review" and give an "award"

now why should you care? ... i suspect that im not the only sucker that got separated from some money based on these "recommendations" or "awards" and wont be the last

in this economy, id rather the money be spent on more practical things, and someone who doesnt know better doesnt think he needs a BD. dead bird, patagucci, etc ...

thank fully enough for actual climbing gear there is much less bull than for clothing ... probably because it all needs to be tested, and specs of the gear are known ... thus allowing for more comparison and less mumbo jumbo

a person should know that they dont needs the newest fancy dead bird gamma or south butt kistwar softshell to climb, as a windshirt and fleece will work better and be cheaper in most cases

marketing in the outdoor industry exists to separate a fool from his money ... you really dont believe they sponsor all those bums out of the goodness of their blessed made in china hearts do ya now

Dow Williams wrote: Who are these folks who spend $500 on jackets and $800 on sleeping bags? Do they climb routes above 5.6?

What does the rating of the climb have to do with jackets and sleeping bags? Seems like weather/climate is the bigger variable here, not the rating of the route. A better question would be, "Do they spend lots of time in harsh weather, beat the crap out of their gear, like to go as light as possible, and don't feel like wearing 4 layers while sleeping?"

Not that I would ever drop $800 on a bag or buy a "dead bird" product, but I dropped some coin on a WM bag and was pretty happy I did. Questioned it big time before I did though...

I'm mostly just a hiker and I don't go for the expensive stuff if I can avoid it. I don't skimp on boots, socks, and some outerwear. I buy the cheapest when it comes to some items (like rain pants) because they are also the lightest. I have to admit to owning a titanium knife, fork, and spoon set though - mostly bought them as a spoof on the absurdity of all of the shit made out of titanium, or, worse yet, the shit that has the name "titanium" as a brand name.

Dow Williams wrote:(somebody needs to explain to me what these fancy bags do for you....if there is a collapsible mini bar in there, I might want one)

A couple of years ago, I was in Escalante, UT around New Years with low temps hitting single digits F and snowing lightly. I was sleeping on a picnic table with a canopy over it in my Feathered Friends bag. Woke up in the middle of the night with water splashing on my face. There was a pool of water on my chest, on top of the bag. Apparent snow drift that melted by my body heat. I rolled over to empty the water and went right back to sleep. Checked the inside of the bag in the morning, and it was completely dry.

While I agree with much of your point, there are some expensive stuff that's worth the money.