is it still ethical to pound pins on a modern fa?

Minimally moderated forum for climbing related hearsay, misinformation, and lies.
User Avatar
savage henry

 
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:11 pm
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post

is it still ethical to pound pins on a modern fa?

by savage henry » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:19 pm

First off even though I'm sure ill get ripped for this I'm curious...
Since its common knowledge removing pins scars the rock, and lately I've been reading in this section about bolting and permanant alteration of the rock got me thinking, if I'm climbing a new route and come to a nailing section, knowing the only way up is to pound in pins, am I justfied to continue? If so have I just made the summit more important than the means? I want to know because It seems like everyone is getting ripped for altering rock permenently (definetly not talking about chippers, I can't agree with that at all.) But if I pound pins where the only other choice is a bolt no one cares, even though I've now scarred/rock just to get to the top. There's a lot of grey to me even though we seem to approach this with a black or white stand. Am I wrong on my thinking, is it unnacceptable nowadays to pound pins and I'm out of the loop? I'm talking on an fa, not repeating classic el cap routes or something. I've mainly been lurking and reading some posts and am curious what a few of you have to say. Please know I'm not calling anyone out or anything, but I'm sure in the end someone will be.

-jr

User Avatar
CClaude

 
Posts: 1568
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:37 am
Thanked: 72 times in 42 posts

by CClaude » Thu Dec 31, 2009 2:41 pm

It depends. Many hard aid routes (the Chief can weigh in on this) still require pins, as do many alpine climbs and some ice/mixed climbs.

I know some trad routes where a pin was placed instead of a bolt where no clean pro will go (but in my opinion there is no difference). If you need to do the route instead of leaving it for someone in the future who could do it without the gear, its your decision.

User Avatar
savage henry

 
Posts: 229
Joined: Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:11 pm
Thanked: 0 time in 0 post

by savage henry » Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:36 pm

To play devils advocate... its ok to mess the rock up on a hard aid route to reach the summit then? Because if that's true it seems the attitude of leave no trace is one of convienence, as long as its easy, but if encountering hard aid its ok to still push to the top?

-jr

User Avatar
CClaude

 
Posts: 1568
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:37 am
Thanked: 72 times in 42 posts

by CClaude » Thu Dec 31, 2009 5:07 pm

In my opinion, I'd say no, to leave it to the next gen with new devices, techniques or bigger cajones (or maybe even for someone to free climb it) but that is me.

I have an attitude, that not everything HAS to be climbed, for reasons of ability, respecting local culture (like some peaks in Nepal).....

But that is MY attitude.

User Avatar
Sierra Ledge Rat

 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:14 am
Thanked: 386 times in 250 posts

by Sierra Ledge Rat » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:05 am

Pins are just fine.

User Avatar
robot one

 
Posts: 84
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2005 6:23 pm
Thanked: 1 time in 1 post

by robot one » Fri Jan 01, 2010 4:06 am

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:Pins are just fine.


+1

User Avatar
Sierra Ledge Rat

 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:14 am
Thanked: 386 times in 250 posts

by Sierra Ledge Rat » Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:54 am

Pins are fine as long as you are...

jschrock wrote:.. respecting local "rules"...

no avatar
The Chief

 
Thanked: time in post

by The Chief » Fri Jan 01, 2010 7:04 am

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:Pins are fine as long as you are...

jschrock wrote:.. respecting local "rules"...


I agree and add....

FAing a line that is in new territory and requires them in order to succeed at the ascent.

But... cleaned in a manner in order to make a clean SA possible.

There is an art to cleaning pins in order to allow for future "Clean Ascents" attempts. This philosophy should now, IMO, be implemented in all current day Aid FA's.

With the SAist making all possible to do so as well...

User Avatar
asmrz

 
Posts: 1097
Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2002 7:52 am
Thanked: 248 times in 157 posts

by asmrz » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:26 pm

Where you are putting up the FA matters as well. In alpine setting, pins are not only useful, sometimes they are the only gear that is safe. Knifeblades, for example, are extremely useful in alpine terrain. I don't see anything improper or unethical in using pins in this example.

User Avatar
Guyzo

 
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2003 12:11 am
Thanked: 24 times in 13 posts

by Guyzo » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:18 pm

robot one wrote:
Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:Pins are just fine.


+1



If your doing a FA....... go at it how ever you wish. 8)

The world is looking at you, and your root will make a "statement" about how you are as a climber.

Pins are very bogus tools to use on popular climbs and repeated pin placements do create holds for free climbing. Again it's your "statement" ..... if you are tryin to do a free ascent of a aid line, and you go nail a pitch over and over again..... well you are chipping. :wink: don't fool yourself.

About a year ago, I went climbing with a fellow who had just purchased a ton of pins off of e-bay.
He was quite shocked :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: when I refused to go climbing with him because he wanted to practice placing pins at taquitz.... :wink:

Way back in the day.... when Sierra Ledge Rat was a climber in the Valley.... it was becoming very obvious that the cracks were being destroyed by pin placements. Even the solid granite of the Valley could be destroyed by just a few ascents.... remember there were only a few climbers back in 1973.

If we were pounding them today..... it would be a big mess.

What do you think the climbs at sandstone spots like Indian Creek would look like if we were still using pins???

gk :wink:

User Avatar
SpiderSavage

 
Posts: 393
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:37 pm
Thanked: 9 times in 5 posts

by SpiderSavage » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:42 pm

At a popular local climbing area (practice area). No, not usually. Although I think there are is at least one route at Mt Roubidoux in Riverside, Ca where it's cool to practice aid. It's good hard granite and the gear goes in and out without much scaring.

At Tahquitz Rock there are many popular routes with fixed pins that go way back. They are often in places where no removable pro would go in. However placing and pulling pitons at Tahquitz, on regularly climbed routes, would be un-cool.

We all moved away from pitons in the early 1970's for reasons on conservation. If you saw a badly scarred rock, you'd agree.

User Avatar
ksolem

 
Posts: 5724
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 4:25 pm
Thanked: 17 times in 13 posts

by ksolem » Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:04 pm

In his OP, JR is clearly referring to the use of pins to climb an aid section on an FA.

I have no problem with this practice, but I do think it is the climber's responsibility to be up to date with any clean climbing alternatives which might eliminate the need for nailing. For example long cracks on Mescalito on El Cap which used to be climbed with thin pins are now done routinely without the hammer by using camhooks (as I recall these are pitches 6 & 7, above the Seagull traverse.)

Also, there is also a long tradition of using fixed pins to protect free climbs (placed on the FA and left for future ascents.) In many cases these pins are eventually replaced with bolts, such as on the Bob Kamps/Tom Higgins route Blanketty Blank, on Tahquitz Rock (this was done with a local consensus.) Speaking of Tahquitz, the cruxes of Green Arch and Magical Mystery Tour are protected by fixed pins as is the crux of Etude, across the way at Suicide Rock.

When I started climbing at The Gunks in the 70's most routes featured many fixed pins. The leader would carry a hammer and test them: a smart tap should produce a high bell like ring. Suspect placements could be adjusted.

I placed a fixed pin to protect free moves on P2 of Despairadoes. I had just climbed a difficult upward traverse on very thin face holds to a corner where I was disappointed to find no gear placements. Sketching, and looking at a swinging fall past an overhang, I decided to place a thin piton, expecting to use it as a point of aid to place a bolt, but the pin was perfect – rang loud and true – so I just left it and continued climbing. I think that pin will last a very long time, but if another climber sees fit to replace it with a bolt I won't get my panties all in a bunch over it.

User Avatar
Sierra Ledge Rat

 
Posts: 1247
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:14 am
Thanked: 386 times in 250 posts

by Sierra Ledge Rat » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:39 am

Guyzo wrote:Way back in the day.... when Sierra Ledge Rat was a climber in the Valley.... it was becoming very obvious that the cracks were being destroyed by pin placements. Even the solid granite of the Valley could be destroyed by just a few ascents.... remember there were only a few climbers back in 1973.


Shit, way back in the day the cracks were not getting destroyed, they were already destroyed....

I agree whole-heartedly with the statement: "The world is looking at you, and your route will make a "statement" about how you are as a climber."

That's also the answer to someone else's question about why you would want to create runouts with a bolted route.

Pins still have a place in climbing, nonetheless. Especially alpine routes.

User Avatar
Craig Peer

 
Posts: 3990
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 10:34 am
Thanked: 12 times in 6 posts

by Craig Peer » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:43 pm

Pins are just fine.


+2. Let's see you climb a rurp seam without pins.

Where you are putting up the FA matters as well. In alpine setting, pins are not only useful, sometimes they are the only gear that is safe. Knifeblades, for example, are extremely useful in alpine terrain. I don't see anything improper or unethical in using pins in this example.


ditto.

User Avatar
ksolem

 
Posts: 5724
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 4:25 pm
Thanked: 17 times in 13 posts

by ksolem » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:15 pm

Yep. Just another tool in the kit.

And just as in any art or craft one will produce the finest result by choosing the right tool for the job.

Next

Return to Ethics, Spray, and Slander

 


  • Related topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests