If the leader climbs higher than half the rope length he can no longer be lowered from that height should he need to bail, correct? So, if you are higher than half the rope length and need to bail I can think of the following options:

1) remove pro as you down climb.

2) remove pro and down climb until the belayer has at least half the rope, then you could be lowered.

3) build anchor and rappel off one strand, possibly abandoning your rope.

Am I missing any options? Is this a common scenario or do pitches rarely exceed 30m? Also, is it standard protocol for the belayer to notify the leader when the halfway mark is reached?

Thanks.

4) As with any multi-rap situation, build an anchor, rap (likely pulling gear if retreating), repeat as many times as needed. Looking for natural anchors helps save gear.

The use of twin or double ropes solves your problem neatly.

Regarding lowering off... Lowering is suitable from bomber anchors and sport climbs.

But, lowering puts a greater load on the gear than rapelling. Lowering adds your weight and the amount of weight your belayer is holding to control your decent as a combined force on the anchor and these forces are amplified by any jerkiness during the operation. Rapelling is your weight alone and you control the smoothness of your descent.

If you are forced to bail from a piece of gear on a trad pitch it is safer to rap.

Thanks for the tips. Still just starting out, but I enjoy on-siting seemingly easy routes, mostly one pitch, and I can foresee myself potentially getting into this situation. Subsequently, I've been practicing downclimbing at the gym, and it has come in handy a few times. I should have thought of the multi-rap option...duh.

A friend and I once killed about 3 hours of boring driving arguing about whether lowering puts more weight on the anchor than rappelling. He was so wrong.

In light of all the financial shenanigans that bankrupted our country, I should point out that he's a "financial wizard."

Generally speaking, if you're in such a situation things have already gone wrong beforehand. When climbing single pitch routes a) you should know the length of the route and the length of your rope before you start climbing, and b) a belayer should additionally always keep an eye out for the middle mark - if the rope has one. Also never forget to tie a knot at the loose end of a rope to prevent it from sliding through a belay device. This is still a "common" cause for often fatal accidents.

When climbing multi-pitch or alpine routes you a) usually use half ropes (=full rope length rappels) and b) try to prevent having to bail before you start climbing (stay within capabilities etc.). If you still get into that situation you are prepared to leave gear behind to rap from.

I have never heard of anyone having to down-climb who wasn't soloing.

mvs wrote:A friend and I once killed about 3 hours of boring driving arguing about whether lowering puts more weight on the anchor than rappelling. He was so wrong.

It's a very simple physics problem. In a rappel, the static force on the anchor is the person's body weight. In lowering, it's this SAME weight PLUS however much tension is on the belayer's end of the rope at the anchor. So it HAS to be more, since the tension on a rope cannot be negative, of course.

(The full forces on the anchor include the dynamic forces of jerking and bouncing, which are not assumed to be any more on a rappel than they are when lowering.)

Rappel versus lowering:

It is true that the stress on the top anchor is larger when lowering due to the pulley effect. So, the chance that your top anchor will fail is lower when rappelling.

However, rappelling from a less-than-bomber anchor has its own risks.

If, before rappelling, you pull the rope from all the anchors except from the top one, then you are at the mercy of that top anchor. If the top anchor is rather flimsy and can't be improved, but a few feet below you have placed a bomber, two-equalized-piece anchor, then lowering to that anchor and re-organizing there may be safer. If the top anchor fails, you have reasonable hope that the lower, better one will catch you.

What if instead of lowering, you rappelled from the top anchor to the bomber one without pulling the rope from the intermediate anchors? Let's ignore the time spent in the transitions and focus on safety. Let's even ignore the fact that the transition into rappel mode gives you an opportunity to make some stupid mistake.

Suppose all went smoothly and now you are rappelling from the top anchor with one of the strands still running through all the intermediate anchors. Disaster strikes and the top anchor pulls.

If your partner is not holding the end of the ropes ready to brake, you are attached to the rope on one side of the anchor only, and you are going to fall.

EDIT: Corrected mistake.

Day Hiker wrote:In a rappel, the static force on the anchor is the person's body weight. In lowering, it's this SAME weight PLUS however much tension is on the belayer's end of the rope at the anchor. So it HAS to be more, since the tension on a rope cannot be negative, of course.

I think you can prove that this effect maxes out at double the climber's weight. So if the belay on a 200 lb. climber is anchored to a one ton boulder, no, the total force when lowering the climber is not 2200 lbs. It is 400 lbs.

chugach mtn boy wrote:

Day Hiker wrote:In a rappel, the static force on the anchor is the person's body weight. In lowering, it's this SAME weight PLUS however much tension is on the belayer's end of the rope at the anchor. So it HAS to be more, since the tension on a rope cannot be negative, of course.

I think you can prove that this effect maxes out at double the climber's weight. So if the belay on a 200 lb. climber is anchored to a one ton boulder, no, the total force when lowering the climber is not 2200 lbs. It is 400 lbs.

I agree that it's double the climber's weight. I wrote the "tension . . . on the belayer's end of the rope," NOT the weight of the belayer (unless he's up in the air, hanging from the rope, I guess). So, in your example, whether it's a 2000-pound boulder or a 200,000-pound boulder, the tension on that end of the rope is still no more than about 200 pounds, like you wrote.

And, while I agree that the total force on the anchor for a lower is about double that for a rappel, I did not discuss this because my post was only to reply to someone's earlier post about whether or not it was more, not how much more.

phlipdascrip wrote:.....

I have never heard of anyone having to down-climb who wasn't soloing.

It happens... http://www.summitpost.org/image/171334/User-Profile-Image.html

Dave Dinnell wrote:

phlipdascrip wrote:.....

I have never heard of anyone having to down-climb who wasn't soloing.

It happens... http://www.summitpost.org/image/171334/User-Profile-Image.html

Other reasons: you get off-route; downclimbing a short technical section on the descent avoids potential rope issues (e.g. Red Rocks)

The ability to downclimb more technical terrain is a useful skill to have.

Downclimbing comes in really handy in backcountry / alpine climbs too. One example is the Matthes Crest traverse. I strongly suggest regular downclimbing practice.

Been there done that. Here's what you do:

1. On a bolted route you leave your least favorite biner at the highest bolt and lower off. Otherwise place a piece of solid pro that you will loose. Lower carefully as far as you can. If that piece fails you're in for an extra long ride (done that too).

2. When you've lowered below half-rope, stop and build a good anchor. Tie in direct and pull your line from above.

3. Rap from there and clean what you can. You're going to loose gear but WTF it's only money. If you can rappel from above to retrieve your gear later then there is no problem at all.

You've got to think like a spider.

phlipdascrip wrote: ...I have never heard of anyone having to down-climb who wasn't soloing.

My experience is the opposite. I have downclimbed while leading many times as have my partners. Often the retreat is followed by a successful attempt with the knowledge gained from the first go.

I do not recall ever downclimbing on a solo, or seeing a soloist take a step back. I did, once, stop in my tracks while soloing and go through a serious "get my sh*t together" episode but that's another story...