Bob, When you look at the history of ice climbing in the Sierra, steepness was always estimated, right from the 1930s. People simply built upon previous experience of others and First Ascents were measured by what has been done already and in what conditions. If you started with the notion that any climber who does a FA of a gully in the Sierra should absolutely determine the correct steepness of his/her new route or otherwise will be berated by people like you, now that's pretty weird. You seem to imply that we all, all of us who ever did a FA of an ice couloir in the Sierra whether in 1950s or the 2000s are posers and liars because we didn't get the steepness right. Is that what you are saying or what is really bugging you? Do tell us.

While we are on this steepness measuring subject Bob, please do tell us what your measurements were for the Triad Couloirs (Knudtson, Smrz and Harrington) and the Moynier Couloir on Thompson were. Curious to see if they jive with the FAist records.

Interesting side note, three guide books state that Ice Nine is only 70ish degs max angle (along with DR's TR in his book/article in Outside Mag and YC's accounts as well) at and above the crux chockstone bulge when it is fully in. You are implying that it is at 82degs which is near vertical when you did it? As I recall, it felt no steeper than 70ish the last time I did it and no where near dead vertical when it was fully formed in Sept of '06. Just goes to show ya Bob how nothing is constant in Sierra Alpine ice. Again, what I encountered last year on my eighth visit was a completely different story.

What you measured when you did em means nothing as the conditions will vary on a seasonal and even a daily basis in some cases.

Exaggeration on my part. That is funny. I have a longstanding rep of being a complete "sandbagger" and have had my ass chewed on many occasion for being so. Maybe you should come along on some of my routes and verify your exaggeration claim BOB.

bobpickering wrote:Gee, when I soloed the middle couloir, I measured it at only 45-49 degrees. The left one comes in at 40-42 degrees.

BULLSHIT!! Maybe your measuring stick needs some calibration. Having climbed the left couloir, it definitely is more than a slimey 42 degrees. Go back to school, Bob.

The Chief wrote:Like Alois mentioned, steepness really has absolutely nothing to do with difficulty.

That's absurd! If that were true, blue ice on the Dana Couloir would be as difficult as blue ice on Ice Nine. Besides, why are you arguing about steepness if it's irrelevant?

asmrz wrote:Bob, When you look at the history of ice climbing in the Sierra, steepness was always estimated, right from the 1930s. People simply built upon previous experience of others and First Ascents were measured by what has been done already and in what conditions. If you started with the notion that any climber who does a FA of a gully in the Sierra should absolutely determine the correct steepness of his/her new route or otherwise will be berated by people like you, now that's pretty weird. You seem to imply that we all, all of us who ever did a FA of an ice couloir in the Sierra whether in 1950s or the 2000s are posers and liars because we didn't get the steepness right. Is that what you are saying or what is really bugging you? Do tell us.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. If the FA party or anyone else didn't have an inclinometer, they should just report their honest estimate. If somebody comes along later and measures and reports it, the guidebooks should probably list the actual measured steepness, rather than somebody's SWAG. That doesn't make anybody a liar. On the other hand, when someone insists that something is 70º+ when he knows it's been measured at 45º-49º, he's blowing smoke.

The Chief wrote:While we are on this steepness measuring subject Bob, please do tell us what your measurements were for the Triad Couloirs (Knudtson, Smrz and Harrington) and the Moynier Couloir on Thompson were. Curious to see if they jive with the FAist records.

I did all four the same day. Moynier was ice, and the other three were snow and not terribly interesting. I climbed up Moynier and found sustained climbing from 40º to 58º with one section (bulge) at 64º. There was also some rather scary loose rock, some of which went crashing down. I downclimbed Harrington and found sustained climbing at 38º-54º with a 60º bulge. I climbed up Smrz and measured 38º-54º. Finally, I downclimbed Knudtson and measures 38º-50º.

The Chief wrote:Interesting side note, three guide books state that Ice Nine is only 70ish degs max angle (along with DR's TR in his book/article in Outside Mag and YC's accounts as well) at and above the crux chockstone bulge when it is fully in. You are implying that it is at 82degs which is near vertical when you did it? As I recall, it felt no steeper than 70ish the last time I did it and no where near dead vertical when it was fully formed in Sept of '06. Just goes to show ya Bob how nothing is constant in Sierra Alpine ice. Again, what I encountered last year on my eighth visit was a completely different story.

The 82º bulge that I measured was very short, so it may not be there all the time. The three pitches I did at 70º-73º are probably about the same every year. That agrees with the sources you cite above.

I noticed very early in my climbing that most people tend to grossly exaggerate the steepness of ice. I bought an inclinometer so I would know the actual slope of what I was climbing. If the snow or ice was smooth, I would just hold it against the surface and take a reading. If the snow or ice was irregular, I would hold one tool against the surface and hold the gauge against the handle of the tool to get a more accurate reading. I obviously never measured every inch of a couloir, but I always took a reading at the bottom and at what appeared to be the steepest sustained climbing. If I found a bulge that was steeper than the overall slope, I measured that too. I often took intermediate readings, especially if the slope was fairly constant and it wasn't obvious where the steepest point was.

I can't guarantee that my measurements were all perfect or that they will be correct under all conditions in all years. However, they ARE measurements, and they are honest. I took most of these measurements before Secor included the Triad Couloirs and before I even heard of SP or the Chief. I wasn't trying to do anything other than gather unbiased information. If someone wants to yell "BULLSHIT" because she wants to believe a number she pulled out of her ass instead of my measurements, that's her prerogative. Besides, "steepness really has absolutely nothing to do with difficulty."

Bob, fair enough. Now let's go to the next step. You publish your steepness measurements on those Couloirs you climbed and measured (in ascending order), and we will compare those to my (and others) subjective ratings of those Couloirs we have climbed, (all of which for ex. I did in full ice conditions, mostly October and November over 30+ years). If as you say, correct steepness measurement is the crux of the matter, let's see how your measured steepness compares to subjective opinion (mine, yours and possibly others) of DIFFICULTY IN FULL ICE CONDITIONS. BTW I personally would not need the starting number of the two you mention, because it tells me very little. Each Couloir has an approach via lower angled glacier, snow field etc., those don't count and in my book mean little, except perhaps their length (if listed) might indicate approach time. The length of the technical section is much more important. I prefer that and the maximum steepness number, including steepness of any bulges and also how sustained is the steepness, also YDS rating of the rock sections (if any), dry tooling sections (if any), how safe is the line vis-avis rockfall danger and protection possibilities. Let's see where this issue leads, no one upmanship or disrespect will be involved on my part. You could even start a new Post on this.
PS added couple words on edit.

There was also some rather scary loose rock, some of which went crashing down.

that loose rock in the moynier couloir is real. chopped the rope wallspeck and i were using in 5 short pieces. not sure about the steepness argument either. all i know is that it was a very committing climb, fairly difficult, and quite real. in the conditions we had, the route would stack up to any alpine route.

the ice was that bullet hard black shit, the chalkstone was crazy in those conditions. a continous pouring of spindrift made the chill bone numbing. long story short, we shoulda died... what a great adventure. and most of the route was done with a chopped rope tied together... these were not solo conditions either.

who cares how steep it is or isn't. it was a real climb that put this internet climber through the wringer.

i've been back too, when it was a walk in the park. on one trip, 31hr c2c. on another we were back by lunch time. go figure...

I noticed very early in my climbing that most people tend to grossly exaggerate the steepness of ice.

Wow! That makes me feel better that I am in an elite group of exaggerators.

If someone wants to yell "BULLSHIT" because she wants to believe a number she pulled out of her ass instead of my measurements, that's her prerogative.

Oh Oh!




BOB PICKERING, this whole measuring thing is nothing short of way weird. A perfect example of the relativeness of this whole thing....

I did all four the same day. Moynier was ice, and the other three were snow and not terribly interesting.

You just proved my point as well as Alois's that any measurements of steepness are not constant with the ever changing conditions that exist. Did you go back to the Triad's and measure them when in full Sierra Bullet Ice conditions? If not, than you should know that after the neve melts out, the angle increases up to 20 degs in some locations as the neve angle is not constant due to fascetting, uneven build up, etc etc. How many of your "measurements" were in full ice conditions and how many consisted of neve?

Bottom line Bob Pickering, your belittling of people, not just myself as you now honestly confess, is totally inappropriate and not valid. Just cus you got some hair up your ass that says you climbed every Sierra couloir and measured them with your angleometer, basically, in reality, doesn't mean jackshit.

Here is one very valid and real reason... If any said couloir consists of minimal ice where it will not accept a scew, is maybe 55 degs and bullet hard, an individual will encounter a potential runout situ of upwards of a full pitch. If they run it out the full length of their rope, have no rock or ice pro opportunities in order to set up a solid stance in order to bring up their second, their situ is now dire and potentially fatal. That my friend is the reality of it all. With that said, regardless the true angle of steepness, any couloir can become a terrifying situ if the ice conditions are minimal and avail the party no rock or ice pro to protect them from a 1000 foot death ride into the abyss of the shrund down low.

So exaggerating aside, the reality of ratings are real and in most cases are a better source of reference to any party if they are solidly established at a rating based on their highest degree of difficulty that the conditions will present for that specific route.

asmrz wrote:No one upmanship or disrespect will be involved on my part.

Alois:

Thanks for taking a civil approach to this steepness business. Some are too busy beating their chests to participate in an actual exchange of ideas.

When I began climbing, there were many couloirs for which I didn't have a rating. The ratings I did run across (in Roper and Secor #1) were inconsistent and sometimes obviously wrong. Some listed slope; some listed a WI or AI rating, and some used YDS. I started measuring everything I climbed for my own education.

Steepness is obviously one factor in determining the difficulty of a snow or ice climb. It's easy to measure, and, with the exception of small bulges and the runout at the bottom of a chute, it doesn't change much. I got in the habit of recording the slope where a couloir "begins", the steepest sustained slope, the steepest bulge (if any), and an estimate of the elevation gain. I make no claim of how important the slope is. However, I think that if we are going to publish the slope, it should be as accurate as possible. There is nothing wrong with guessing, as long as you don't get defensive when someone measures it and comes up with a different number.

As you and Chief have pointed out, the condition of the route is an even bigger factor in determining its difficulty. Soft snow, hard snow, porous ice, solid blue ice, black ice, and mixed climbing all provide very different challenges. Weather and potential rockfall add to the mix. Rating snow and ice climbs isn't easy, since the conditions can vary dramatically. There was never any debate on this.

I've done some couloirs in full-on ice conditions, some when there was snow the whole way, and quite a few when there was a mix of ice and snow. A few times, I've had to do a little mixed climbing, but not much. By going earlier in the year, I was able to solo all these routes except for Ice Nine and the Clyde Couloir.

I'm not going to publish every measurement I've ever taken because I don't want to have to defend it or answer questions for the rest of the summer. Since you seem genuinely interested, I'll send it to you via PM or email.

Bob

By going earlier in the year, I was able to solo all these routes except for Ice Nine and the Clyde Couloir... I think that if we are going to publish the slope, it should be as accurate as possible.

By your admission, you climbed (solo'd) most of these couloirs in the early season. Was this when you took your measurements Bob?

Chest beating... whatever Bob! Seems your belittling others with your generalized "exaggeration" claim is a far worse front than any chest beating. Down right rude, egocentric and disrespectful.

Hooray for North Peak fun in the sun!!!!!

Josh and I walkin out to Pico Norte in late June in OH Nine.


WML shot this silly pic of me riding down the right side wearing ski boots, a little awkward but all good. I didn't want to bring snowboard boots AND ski boots since I already brought skis and a snowboard to ride the left and right, respectively, couloirs, and the ski boots seemed to work while testing in the parking lot. Wheeee!


Right side slarvin, North Peak. Thanks to Josh Hejl for the pics.
Probably 31 degrees, steep for a blue square.


Next in line, the 35 degree left side. This is probably a black diamond run?


IM ONA BOAT!

So we ended up not going to North Peak because of the lack of consensus on its steepness (that and the pictures someone posted up thread). We ended up going to the Palisades trying to climb whichever gully looked the iciest. Sure enough near the top part of the U-notch the sun was glistening off of what looked like ice. So we ended up doing the U-Notch on Saturday 8/20/2011 (pic below) in a C2C push. It was good fun and we got 1 pitch of ice in (and one pitch of aerated stuff).

Good fun!

I think Bob's work measuring couloirs at different times and under different conditions is a very useful contribution if these numbers would be published. Just have to not the condition such as snow, neve, blue, black ice, or water ice bulge which was formed by melting. Because couloirs and climbs are different under varied conditions I do not think people should critique these #s, but purely note that #s could be off a bit.


By the way, NORTH PEAK couloirs did not have any obvious blue ice seen anywhere yesterday. As seen from approach Shepherd Crest and NW ridge of N peak. Will post couple of photos when I get home from work.

snowey wrote: So we ended up doing the U-Notch on Saturday 8/20/2011 (pic below) in a C2C push.

Some people I met on the way home told me they seen someone bivy at the U notch this weekend, did you see those guys?

Vitaliy M. wrote:

snowey wrote: So we ended up doing the U-Notch on Saturday 8/20/2011 (pic below) in a C2C push.

Some people I met on the way home told me they seen someone bivy at the U notch this weekend, did you see those guys?

Yes. We saw a guy and a girl rappelling from the top once we were about half way down. By the time we had walked to the end of the glacier they were still about 1/2 way down. We figured it would be a long day/night for them.

Bob - I would be interested in seeing your measurements as well. I suppose you might not care to, but making a summitpost page on ice climbs in the Sierra and their steepness measurements would probably be appreciated by a large number of people. Steepness is certainly an important factor contributing to the difficulty of alpine ice climbs, and an objective measurement is far better than a subjective guess (although these are of course helpful too!).