I think that the palm up technique illustrated above is a hold over of the correct hand position for a hip belay in which the rope goes around your hips rather than through a device.

If you are doing a hip belay, the stopping position is in the opposite direction from the stopping position when using a belay device and palms up provides the strongest grip because the hand gets turned over when braking.

In my opinion, with a belay device, the hand position needs to be reversed – eg. palm down.

http://www.traditionalmountaineering.or ... arness.htm

The movie clip recommended by Brenta is excellent and the same technique works just as well with an ATC or any other similar device.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4x7q7 ... ppel_sport

I learned to belay in a gym and learned palm down (My hand is always in the break position) and I know that is how it is taught in the gym.

Just tuning into the discussion here...agree with Fred as to probably how FOTH perpetuated the method. I learned palm up using a hip belay 3 decades ago. I then carried that style over when I first began using the sticht plate and figure 8.

Does anyone have any thoughts, tips, suggestions regarding belaying someone with 100lbs on you? Obviously anchoring yourself seems like the best solution and is a no brainer in a top rope or sport route situation but however this was a bit of an issue for me last year on an alpine trad route. My partner was working really hard to get over this roof and kept popping off. I was on a small ledge below doing my best to brace myself for the falls while still being able to play out the rope. I was at least as pumped as he was and even with the rope wrapped twice around my thigh and all my weight, he'd still loose ground when he fell and with him hanging on the rope struggling to get back on the rock, he'd usually a little more. I wanted to anchor myself but he didn't want to put the additional strain on the pro. I suggested an anchor that would help me hold the strain of his weight on the rope but would break under a serious fall. I wondered if maybe a screamer might work as an anchor in this sort of scenario? He couldn't see how much I was struggling so at the time he thought I was just being lame but when the bruises showed up the next day he realized that I wasn't kidding. The obvious solution is to not climb with someone that much bigger than you and I usually don't... but I'd really be interested to hear what others have come up with to deal with this.

edit: I guess I should mention that we were using 8mm half ropes and a BD ATC Guide.

Utilize the DIRECT BELAY Method! It can easily be done with an ATC GUIDE but I personally prefer and use a REVERSO.


This can be set-up whether in a vertical or downward Belay situ.


When guiding, I will ALWAYS use this method as it supports a fast Lock Off and requires NO Escape, saving very valuable time when it may deem necessary to set up for a Rescue and does not confine me to the Belay System.

The Chief wrote:Utilize the DIRECT BELAY Method! It can easily be done with an ATC GUIDE but I personally prefer and use a REVERSO.
[imghttp://www.distant-horizons.co.uk/images/directbelaysetup.JPG/img]

This can be set-up whether in a vertical or downward Belay situ.
[imghttp://www.rocksport.co.za:81/climbing/images/belaying01.jpg/img]

When guiding, I will ALWAYS use this method as it supports a fast Lock Off and requires NO Escape, saving very valuable time when it may deem necessary to set up for a Rescue and does not confine me to the Belay System.

In the downward situation, it only works for a TR situation right ? I'm now sure how you would belay a leader... it requires setting up the sling (for the ATC guide) and leverage biner (for hte Reverso 3) to give out slack.

kheegster wrote:In the downward situation, it only works for a TR situation right ? I'm now sure how you would belay a leader... it requires setting up the sling (for the ATC guide) and leverage biner (for hte Reverso 3) to give out slack.

Just the same set up manner in either direction... look at the bottom illustration example for Belaying the Leader.

In most cases if not all, any Belay System will be set up with an anchor for the Belayer to tie-off to correct? Well, instead of attaching the anchor system to the harness, simply Belay Directly off of it. Thus, the DIRECT BELAY.

As the Chief said, in direct belaying, instead of you belaying from your harness, thus making you part of the system, the belay is set up off an independent anchor. It can be a belay device or a Munter hitch. When I have climbed with my guiding friend in Switzerland, this is always how we belayed and he preferred using a Munter. Fred and I also routinely did this in the Dolomites, where the belay stances had big rings to accommodate this system and the set up was quick. If all hell breaks loss, you aren't in the system. You can tie off the belay device or the Munter and rig something else if need be. This works whether you are belaying the leader or bringing up a second. It doesn't have to be behind you, like Chief's illustration shows, it can be in front of you.

Moni...

For Trad and Sport I used the Munter for well over 25 years for both Belaying and Rapping till I got lazy, broke down and have been using a Reverso for the past seven or so years.

i use the direct belay a lot to bring up a second but it doesn't solve the problem of the static belay for a lead. Definitely would save me getting thrashed around but doesn't cushion the load on the pro in the event of a fall. But in conjunction with what I was suggesting earlier... would that be a good compromise? It seems strange to be talking about setting up an anchor that will fail but better I go for a ride than unzip all the pro right?

MountaingirlBC wrote:i use the direct belay a lot to bring up a second but it doesn't solve the problem of the static belay for a lead.

And why is that?

MountaingirlBC wrote:iDefinitely would save me getting thrashed around but doesn't cushion the load on the pro in the event of a fall. But in conjunction with what I was suggesting earlier... would that be a good compromise? It seems strange to be talking about setting up an anchor that will fail but better I go for a ride than unzip all the pro right?

The above statement makes no sense.

"but doesn't cushion the load on the Pro"???

That is solved by the inherent dynamics of rope stretch, not the belayer. Besides, what is your weight going to do anyway as to your original question of belaying a 200lb leader. This statement makes absolutely no sense.

Also, if you are on a hanging belay and a factor 2 fall occurs, god forbid, the anchor and not you as a belayer, will assume the initial and direct load, making the tie off if needed issue a done deal in a DIRECT Belay Situ. Where as if you as the belayer and you take the initial and direct load during and after the fall on an INDIRECT Belay Situ, with a 200 lb leader, you are going to be Fkd!

Another example of why Anchor Building knowledge is so critical. Many just build an initial anchor for DOWNWARD pull when they reach the top of the pitch. Both VERTICAL and DOWNWARD Rotational aspects need to be considered and then implemented in all final Anchor constructions.

Anyone that is a regular Wall or Solo Aid Climber will truly understand this concept.

And... "setting up a anchor that will fail"?

Explain!

This would probably be a better show and tell question. Trying to explain this in words is obviously not working very well. I need a whiteboard.

Belaying off bolts for example, instead of me, while still dynamic due to the rope, still has less give than if I were to get jerked off the ground a bit during a fall.

A traditional belay is going to lead to a 'softer' fall. That was my partner's argument for me NOT being anchored. What I wanted to do was anchor myself to the ledge with something that would be strong enough to hold his hanging weight on the rope and the minor falls he was having on to a piece he had placed above him. So the anchor is attached to me as an anchor for me... not the climber. I'm still belaying him manually. But I wanted that anchor to break or extend in the event of a big fall (and here's where your upward anchor comes in obviously to catch me on the way up).

Julia, have the leader set a screamer on the last piece before he takes the whipper, then you wont have to worry about a super dynamic belay to protect the pro. Good to see you back on Sp BTW!

You are making this far too complicated than necessary.

A DIRECT BELAY, regardless of location, will remedy any weight difference you share and make any potential TIE OFF much easier in case of emergency...period.

It is a proven belay method and required by the AMGA, UIAGM and all other Guide Certs regardless of weight differences.

I have been doing this for over 25 years and it has saved my ass on several outings.

PS: When the UIAA does all it's rope testing, the system DOES not include a "cushioning" effect. Have never heard of this concept till your post. UIAA Kinetic Energy evaluations are based on DIRECT tie offs via the DIRECT BELAY SYSTEM only.

It is not required to use, it is required to know how and when to use.