radson wrote:

norco17 wrote:

norco17 wrote:guide=aid

Let me expand on this now that I have more time. Climbing with a guide is still climbing however it takes away many of the risks, thrills, and fun. I have never gone with a guide, but that is mainly becuase a) I can't afford one and b) I haven't been doing this stuff all that long and have not done climbs where I think a guide would be necesary.

For me much of the thrill in climbing is the uncertainty. I go out to be closer to nature and God. I do not see obtaining a preset goal of a peak or a route as the ultimate goal. Some of my best trips have been the failures. Getting off route in good weather or trying to follow a route in bad weather and not succeeding is way more rewarding to me than the physical challenge of following a guide up a mountain.

My climbing partners and myself all look at each other as equals and we are all involved in the decision making. We set goals try to obtain them and if we can't we back off and return another day with the knowledge gained from a previous trip. This tends to make us pack in a more expedition style because many times we do not get all the available beta and we don't always know what we are entirely in for. This style of climbing can be much more interesting than following someone that has been there before.

If you are going somewhere where you have a fixed amount of time or route finding mistakes can lead to disaster than by all means take a guide, but if you want to truly be out there on your own relying on yourselves than look for a local peak, mountain, canyon, or coulier here on SP. Read how to get to the trailhead and then just go for it. It is more fun that way anyway.

Norco, its cool you like to climb this way. Well done. But hey it's more fun for you this way, not necessarily others. You say you havent been with a guide, so its a bit unfair to say its more fun, interesting and by assumption better.

Professional guides in a perfect world can be incredibly good resource for better techniques and skills an alternately can make a trip a nightmare out of something that could have been attempted alone. Let people choose how they want to climb and let the individual decide who is having the most fun.

Norco17 and Radson I really enjoyed reading and agree with your posts. That's the beauty of climbing, it means different things to different people and, in the end, does it really matter what other people think? In my opinion every climber climbs regardless of how they do it and that's what we're really talking about here isn't it? Opinions. They're like climbing styles, we all have one and we won't always agree.

Is it still sex if you use a condom?

Is it still climbing if you wear clothes?

As evidenced by my profile photo, I attempted K2's North Ridge without clothes.

I didn't get too far, but no one could accuse me of cheating.

Brad Marshall wrote:

radson wrote:

norco17 wrote:

norco17 wrote:guide=aid

Let me expand on this now that I have more time. Climbing with a guide is still climbing however it takes away many of the risks, thrills, and fun. I have never gone with a guide, but that is mainly becuase a) I can't afford one and b) I haven't been doing this stuff all that long and have not done climbs where I think a guide would be necesary.

For me much of the thrill in climbing is the uncertainty. I go out to be closer to nature and God. I do not see obtaining a preset goal of a peak or a route as the ultimate goal. Some of my best trips have been the failures. Getting off route in good weather or trying to follow a route in bad weather and not succeeding is way more rewarding to me than the physical challenge of following a guide up a mountain.

My climbing partners and myself all look at each other as equals and we are all involved in the decision making. We set goals try to obtain them and if we can't we back off and return another day with the knowledge gained from a previous trip. This tends to make us pack in a more expedition style because many times we do not get all the available beta and we don't always know what we are entirely in for. This style of climbing can be much more interesting than following someone that has been there before.

If you are going somewhere where you have a fixed amount of time or route finding mistakes can lead to disaster than by all means take a guide, but if you want to truly be out there on your own relying on yourselves than look for a local peak, mountain, canyon, or coulier here on SP. Read how to get to the trailhead and then just go for it. It is more fun that way anyway.

Norco, its cool you like to climb this way. Well done. But hey it's more fun for you this way, not necessarily others. You say you havent been with a guide, so its a bit unfair to say its more fun, interesting and by assumption better.

Professional guides in a perfect world can be incredibly good resource for better techniques and skills an alternately can make a trip a nightmare out of something that could have been attempted alone. Let people choose how they want to climb and let the individual decide who is having the most fun.

Norco17 and Radson I really enjoyed reading and agree with your posts. That's the beauty of climbing, it means different things to different people and, in the end, does it really matter what other people think? In my opinion every climber climbs regardless of how they do it and that's what we're really talking about here isn't it? Opinions. They're like climbing styles, we all have one and we won't always agree.

Agreed. Even though these guys are sort of saying different things, I agree with a lot of what both have written. Climbing without a guide = riskier? Probably. More thrilling and fun? I'd say yes, though I know not everyone would agree. I find myself agreeing with norco on a lot of the rest. But it's also true, as radson says, that guides can be a hell of a resource.

What I don't agree with is the argument (whether it was made here or not) that climbing with a guide is basically the same thing as climbing with a more experienced friend, except that you're paying them money. It's not even close to the same thing. As a guide, I've climbed with clients and with less experienced friends, and I can tell you it's not close to the same thing for the guide, either.

ridgeline wrote:Is it still sex if you use a condom?

That is a flawed analogy, however lots of people do hire partners for sex. Personally I have not, either for sex or for climbing. But I hear that if you get the right professional the experience can be rewarding.

Brad Marshall wrote:

radson wrote:

norco17 wrote:

norco17 wrote:guide=aid

Let me expand on this now that I have more time. Climbing with a guide is still climbing however it takes away many of the risks, thrills, and fun. I have never gone with a guide, but that is mainly becuase a) I can't afford one and b) I haven't been doing this stuff all that long and have not done climbs where I think a guide would be necesary.

For me much of the thrill in climbing is the uncertainty. I go out to be closer to nature and God. I do not see obtaining a preset goal of a peak or a route as the ultimate goal. Some of my best trips have been the failures. Getting off route in good weather or trying to follow a route in bad weather and not succeeding is way more rewarding to me than the physical challenge of following a guide up a mountain.

My climbing partners and myself all look at each other as equals and we are all involved in the decision making. We set goals try to obtain them and if we can't we back off and return another day with the knowledge gained from a previous trip. This tends to make us pack in a more expedition style because many times we do not get all the available beta and we don't always know what we are entirely in for. This style of climbing can be much more interesting than following someone that has been there before.

If you are going somewhere where you have a fixed amount of time or route finding mistakes can lead to disaster than by all means take a guide, but if you want to truly be out there on your own relying on yourselves than look for a local peak, mountain, canyon, or coulier here on SP. Read how to get to the trailhead and then just go for it. It is more fun that way anyway.

Norco, its cool you like to climb this way. Well done. But hey it's more fun for you this way, not necessarily others. You say you havent been with a guide, so its a bit unfair to say its more fun, interesting and by assumption better.

Professional guides in a perfect world can be incredibly good resource for better techniques and skills an alternately can make a trip a nightmare out of something that could have been attempted alone. Let people choose how they want to climb and let the individual decide who is having the most fun.

Norco17 and Radson I really enjoyed reading and agree with your posts. That's the beauty of climbing, it means different things to different people and, in the end, does it really matter what other people think? In my opinion every climber climbs regardless of how they do it and that's what we're really talking about here isn't it? Opinions. They're like climbing styles, we all have one and we won't always agree.

Exactly to each his own.

Radson I agree that guides can be good resources to learn new skills/techniques, but to me once these skills are learned it is better to go unguided. And if one can gain this knowledge from a more experienced friend then why not.

norco, I think we are coming from differing perspectives. I think the skillset to be the consummate climber is almost infinite in nature and ongoing.

I totally agree to be auto-didactic is great and necessary. It's also great to learn from the professionals rather than re-inventing the wheel. An extreme example, a crevasse rescue is not the time to try and figure out how to build a decent pulley system.

..and yes to learn from an experienced friend is great. I am lucky to have some very gifted and patient friends in that regard.

I guess I am just a bit cynical as I have seen some loopy stuff in the mountains recently plus I am reading about the Duning-Kruger effect.

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is an example of cognitive bias in which "people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it".[1] They therefore suffer an illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average"

This probably doesn't happen so much in the US, but in Europe there are climbing guides who form steady climbing relationships with their clients and do some very serious routes. I don't think anyone can consider an ascent of the Eiger Nordwand as 'aid' even if climbing with a guide.

radson wrote:norco, I think we are coming from differing perspectives. I think the skillset to be the consummate climber is almost infinite in nature and ongoing.

I totally agree to be auto-didactic is great and necessary. It's also great to learn from the professionals rather than re-inventing the wheel. An extreme example, a crevasse rescue is not the time to try and figure out how to build a decent pulley system.

..and yes to learn from an experienced friend is great. I am lucky to have some very gifted and patient friends in that regard.

I guess I am just a bit cynical as I have seen some loopy stuff in the mountains recently plus I am reading about the Duning-Kruger effect.

"The Dunning–Kruger effect is an example of cognitive bias in which "people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it".[1] They therefore suffer an illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average"

You are right the skillset of a climber is always being learned. There is no one climber that has or knows every skill. Learn as you go and be honest with yourself. If you are going to attempt a route you need to be prepared to back off if you are not ready for it. If I am attempting a new route and going in the style that I mentioned earlier in this forum and I happen to run into a pitch of vertical ice that I was not expecting I am going to have to turn, go home, learn to ice climb, and come back another day. If I think that the best way for me to learn to ice climb is through a guide then that is what I will do.

I do not go out and do every climb without someone who has done it before. I want to make it home alive so I put in the time to learn and I know my limits. I have no problems about turning if I think the situation is above me. I also have no problem asking questions when I have them.

As far as the Dunning-Kruger effect goes I find it kind of funny that you mention it, because I am a lifeguard at a lake and I spent all day today telling people that obviously could not swim that they need to stay where they can touch. And their reply, "but I know how to swim." Believe me I understand why you are cynical.

ridgeline wrote:Is it still sex if you use a condom?

It doesn't feel quite like it! (I once saw it compared to "taking a shower with a raincoat on".)

radson wrote:

mconnell wrote:

radson wrote:as per MartaP. If you use the services of a guide and feel the need to discuss your exploits, then it's only fair to mention that you climbed with a guide.

But only if the guide carries your sorry ass to the top. Having someone more experienced than yourself along doesn't mean that you didn't climb something, whether you paid that person or not.

I agree, the physical part of the climb is purely the domain of the client....but a climb is not all about the physical aspect. As such, personally I think it's more ethical to state if one climbed with or without a guide to pay some respect to the logistical, navigational and judgement etc aspects of the climb.

The same could be said for any climbing other than going solo.

Is it still church if there's no preacher? Isn't the ritual of attending services about seeking spiritual guidance from someone more knowledgeable than you? Does it make you any less a Christian? And don't you still have to tithe?

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I find that analogy fascinating.

I've hired two guides in my life - one because I wanted to climb ice in the Canadian Rockies, wasn't leading at the time, had little experience overall, and didn't have a climbing partner. The other was less a guide and more a teacher (Level I AIARE course) although when I head back down for Level II and/or want to climb something mixed and/or outside my comfort zone I'll seek Matt out again.

Greg G was rock solid, patient, and led me up stuff that was risky for me at the time. (BTW I hired him twice, first time as a client, second time as a friend and will continue to count on him when I head to the Great White North). Would I have done it alone or with a "friend?" Hell, no, not the ice we were on! I'm all about taking risks, but they're going to be calculated since I don't want to die from catching Stupid. My point is that climbing with a guide IS going to make you take risks, learn stuff, perhaps even take you to the next level. Far superior to going it alone or with equally unskilled partners and waving the magic wand at the TH hoping you survive the day.

Matt also was rock solid, patient, and took a bunch of yahoos (one of whom was the bitch client from hell - I finally told her to either chill or get lost - but that's another story for another day) into terra-at-the-time incognito. I am confident that my next adventure with him/his guiding service will be just as valuable.

My point is that when one is ready to take serious risks, to learn from a pro and garner the skills every mountaineer needs, a competent guide is really one of the best ways to go. They tend to be less judgmental than folks you know and, frankly, will offer more sound advice than a lot of folks who believe they're the shizz - and there are a lot of them, trust me.

Was I/will I still be climbing? You know it. I'll be working my ass off. Will I tell folks I climbed with a guide? Damned straight, and proud to link my name with any of these guys.

This is the exact subject I've been pondering lately. It has become germane because I have found myself intent on making it up the East Buttress of Whitney. As a lifelong backpacker and peak bagger, I only took up technical climbing in the past four years. It always seemed to me to be limited to superhumans - not so, I've learned.

For various reasons, maybe because I took up trad climbing as an older person, I have not found a mentor. So a friend and I have learned on our own. We're each leading 5.6 with an occasional 5.7 move (most recently Holdless Horror and Northwest Books in Tuolumne).

While I'm still willing and able to schlep a load up North Fork Lone Pine Creek, I'd like to give the E. Butt. Whitney a shot. I feel confident I could flop leads with a competent climber. Teaming up with my friend, however, I'm fear we might get in over our heads. I can envision heading up a pitch and finding myself in technical territory from which I can neither advance or retreat. I'd like someone to point upward and say, "Head there, build the anchor."

So, for me, a guide is the only option left. I'm reluctant to extend the time out a few years as I flatten the learning curve because I'm a week away from 61 and want to get moving. The frustrating part is I don't need someone to guide me up the trail or tell me how to pack my pack or get down the Mtnr's Route. I do need a competent partner and I guess that's what I'll pay for.

As a side note, I talked with a climber last week who went with two companions up the E Buttress Whitney. The companions, 5.10 climbers, were reluctant to carry loads up NFLPC, so hired some 20-year-old "porter" in Bishop to lug 50 lbs of gear. Did they "climb" Whitney? Do you climb a mountain if some one else makes it possible for you to get to the bottom of the "climb?"

It's an endless semantic argument, I suppose.

tom - while I consider 61 still young I also know how quickly time passes without consideration for the participant! No one's ever asked me how I feel about the years shooting by, dammit!

Do what it takes to make this happen - there's someone out there who's competent and will give you a great experience without being overbearing. I'm sure folks here will give some great recommendations. I've not done the route myself but I understand it's a really straight-forward, 5-star climb. The challenge is that it's at the end of a long summit hike, although it can be done car-to-car in a day.

And hauling gear to the base? Eh. I know folks who hire kids to haul their pigs to the base of El Cap in exchange for "training." Just means they're lazy, nothing else and while they still bag serious routes it kinda takes away from the adventure of it all. Just a personal choice.

Gary Schenk wrote:

tom johnson wrote:So, for me, a guide is the only option left. I'm reluctant to extend the time out a few years as I flatten the learning curve because I'm a week away from 61 and want to get moving.

Go for the guide, Tom. There's no shame attached to that. Not only will you have the time of your life up there, but you'll learn a lot, too. Nothing wrong with that.

I have never used Guides because I mostly rock climb. I have used AID from Packers to get all that stuff to the base..... save your legs for the climbing.

I have a friend, who can trad lead 5.11-a on a good day, who uses them when he goes to Canada for Ice Climbing. He says it's very "cost effective" because Barry has all this great gear/clothing he breaks out for those sub-zero days, knows the way to the climbs, knows the conditions of the snow and ice and he will let my friend lead pitches if he wants to. When my friend returns from Canada he has for sure climbed "tripple XXX death Ice smear", but we don't really give him props for it because he used a guide.

I can sum it up like this: If we saw him with some ultra hot babe at a party we would all go ""wow dude some score.... " but if we knew that some $$$$$$ was involved we would all go " wow dude, having fun? .

And Tom.... all you need to do is get out and do some rock climbing away from TM ( that stuff is pretty unique, and dosen't translate to East Face Whitney rock ) to build up your skills some. Dig up a good partner and have some confidence in your ability to Climb and Pro and, if necessary, escape from a climb.

So Tom, your "only option" is "how do I score a permit"?

Best wishes, good luck 2 you.