MarthaP wrote:Most reliable system I've found?



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I have yet to go anywhere with anyone relying on a GPS who actually got us to our proper destination.

Thank you!

I have found that far too many today are relying on a battery driven GPS device and have absolutely NO IDEA on the basics of orienteering with a map and compass.

So typical of the modern techi age. Seems folks today want the easy the way.

What happens if the device fails or it is lost???

These folks are fked! Then the cell/Sat phone comes out and the SAR team is called..."Help me, I'm lost!"

MoapaPk wrote:

dan2see wrote:I use a Garmin eTrex Summit. I think it's the best GPS you can carry. It doesn't have built-in map, but that's not very useful anyway. I mean, when was the last time you need help to discover you were on the summit?

Do you pre-plan routes and upload tracks to the unit? Without a computer link and mapping software, a GPS is of limited value.

No. Actually I do a lot of off-trail exploring, so a pre-made track is not useful.

I've been on scrambles with friends who did upload the tracks into their GPS. Mostly the track was obvious, because we were following a ridge-line or creek. Sometimes I did not like relying on downloaded track. In general, I don't like the mapping.

But the mapping GPS certainly is useful for a group on an intricate route. That's where I'd use it.

I have several dozen GPS waypoints marked to keep a database of Interstate Highway speed traps.

dan2see wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:

dan2see wrote:I use a Garmin eTrex Summit. I think it's the best GPS you can carry. It doesn't have built-in map, but that's not very useful anyway. I mean, when was the last time you need help to discover you were on the summit?

Do you pre-plan routes and upload tracks to the unit? Without a computer link and mapping software, a GPS is of limited value.

No. Actually I do a lot of off-trail exploring, so a pre-made track is not useful.

Pretty much all my wilderness travel involves off-trail. I examine the maps and aerials beforehand, plot up hypothetical tracks, send them to the GPS, and usually am fairly close to those tracks. I deviate for unexpected cliff bands and so forth, and save the actual track for future trips. Even when I deviate a lot from plans, it is useful to know where I am relative to the pre-made track, especially in terrain where the contours are 80' apart and maps can be tricky to interpret. The pre-planned tracks are always printed out on paper copies of the area map.

The Chief wrote:

MarthaP wrote:Most reliable system I've found?



PLUS



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I have yet to go anywhere with anyone relying on a GPS who actually got us to our proper destination.

Thank you!

I have found that far too many today are relying on a battery driven GPS device and have absolutely NO IDEA on the basics of orienteering with a map and compass.

So typical of the modern techi age. Seems folks today want the easy the way.

What happens if the device fails or it is lost???

These folks are fked! Then the cell/Sat phone comes out and the SAR team is called..."Help me, I'm lost!"

You're probably right Chief but I'm sure there are plenty of us that use a GPS and carry a map and compass as a back up. Using a GPS in certain situations does make things much easier and there's nothing wrong with that. If the GPS fails we just pull out our map and compass so we're probably not fked. By the way, saw a neat T-shirt last weekend that read:

"Support your local SAR...Get lost!"

The navy used to teach officers to sail wind-driven ships, before they were taught to use higher-tech equipment. Similarly, people should learn the basics of map and compass before even thinking about using a GPS.

What many people lack, be they device-oriented or old timers, is the 3rd item shown by MarthaP, especially the rote experience that ingrains an almost instantaneous interpretation of the terrain. Frankly, a GPS isn't going to help a person who has a hard time visualizing 3D and reading a contour map, and has to be reminded that the sun moves more-or-less east to west through the day.

When I lead a trip, I print out maps with the planned routes for the members of the group. I typically point to the physical features that we can see, and show what they correspond to on the map. It's amazing how many people will tell me quite frankly that they don't know how to read a map. Less often, people will get out a compass, and get very confused about the declination correction, often getting it backwards, or not realize there is a declination correction.

NOW back to the OP; what uses do you envision, and what do you mean by mountaineering?

Wow... some great information here and many leads to follow up on!

First off, understand and agree that map, compass and route planning are the first and best option for navigation. I'd like to carry a GPS as an extra measure of safety just in case (white out, no clear bearings, etc...).

To clarify (as was asked in the previous post), by mountaineering, I don't mean anything too technical (yet!). Intending to use this on Mount Washington and 4Kers in the northeast this winter and then on Whitney and Rainier next summer (I've been up Rainier once but on a guided expedition).

General use will be multi-day trips on trail, snow and ice but nothing in excess of 40-45 degrees. Use while driving is interesting but not a real concern. I like the idea of route tracking that was mentioned in this thread...Hadn't considered that previously.

Sounds like I should be considering the GPSMAP 60CSx and the Geko 201 to start. Any others?

Thanks all for the advice

A GPS is very useful in whiteouts. In the NE, about anything that will show your track and/or waypoints on a screen will help. You don't have to worry as much about obstructed views from cliffs (as folks in the west), so you don't need the most super-duper receiver chipset.

One caution about the 60csx: The models I've used require extra effort to get them to use Li batteries. For cold weather, you really want Li batteries, unless you are certain you will only use the GPS in an occasional mode (rather than record a continuous track). The 60csx has a glitch in the voltage check; fresh Li batteries have slightly too high a voltage, so the unit turns itself off to protect the electronics. If the batteries are first discharged a few minutes in a flashlight (or in my case, and older GPS), they will work fine. Whatever GPS unit you choose, if you plan on having it out and operational for a while (as might be the case in a whiteout), make sure that in some way, it will work with Li batteries.

Pay attention to the expected battery life. Older units typically use more power than the newer ones, and the batteries don't last as long. Always carry extra batteries (partly discharged Li, if required). Many units will go 20-28 hours on a pair of Li AA. Changing batteries in the dark, with bulky gloves, can be a challenge. Some units have built-in rechargeable batteries, and will go only 8 hours on a charge (if continuously tracking); that short life can be quite troubling.

I've navigated through 10 or 11 whiteouts now; the last two by GPS, the previous by map, compass, markers (like wands), and dumb luck. I have to say it was a lot scarier without the GPS, and I sometimes ended up following the wrong drainage for a heart-thumping half an hour or so. A compass is still a good emergency measure, but it's tough to take a bearing on a distant mark when you have a whiteout.

If you want to connect with a computer, and transfer tracks and waypoints back and forth before or after the trip, make sure the unit has transfer capability. Many units do not. Some units have just an older serial connection, which is quite rare on computers nowadays.

MoapaPk wrote:. . . has to be reminded that the sun moves more-or-less east to west through the day.

When I delivered pizzas and took delivery orders over the phone, I sometimes would ask people if they were east or west of [whatever street runs perpendicular to the one they live on], and they would have no f-ing clue which way was east or west, even though they couldn't possibly have lived there for years without seeing sunrise or sunset a thousand times. Just amazing.

MarthaP wrote:Most reliable system I've found?



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I have yet to go anywhere with anyone relying on a GPS who actually got us to our proper destination.

Beat me to it, Martha.

The Chief wrote:Thank you!

I have found that far too many today are relying on a battery driven GPS device and have absolutely NO IDEA on the basics of orienteering with a map and compass.

Even without the map and compass, people should be able to find their way around. Most people go in and out the same way, so there's no excuse for getting lost. Engage your brain, pay attention to where you are going, and getting lost is pretty damn hard, especially in most of CA and CO, where you are never more than a few miles from a road (assuming you can figure out which way is north and know where you are). For years, I have very rarely carried a map. I look at a map before a trip and then just pay attention. I guess I've been "lost" a few times, but never so much that I can't find my way back.

It's true that I've climbed a peak, only to look acrossed a valley and realized I climb the wrong thing, or descended the wrong gulley that ends in a cliff and had to climb back up, but so what? Adds to the fun to add an extra 2-3 hours onto a 12 hour day.

For the "12 essentials" crowd, I also don't carry extra food or water, spare clothes, 20lb first aid kit, a sat phone, emergency beacon, inflatable hot tub, nor much of anything else on day trips.

FortMental wrote:I can't for the life of me understand how it's possible for anyone to navigate with a GPS unit without understanding basic map and compass principles. Can any wanker just get off the couch, grab their GPS unit, and bushwack to the 3rd class scramble to a hidden ridge on the blind side of a mountain?

Just think of all those Native Americans who only THOUGHT they knew where they were going.

Similarly, people should learn the basics of map and compass before even thinking about using a GPS.

Map/compass is a useful skill but you could be as safe with GPS despite it is a costly solution just carry two of them in two different places with separate storage for their batteries. The same redundancy principle that makes the planes extremely safe. GPS that gives now 5-10 m accuracy could be invaluable device. You still could be on the move in nearly complete white-out while with map and compass you are forced to bivy. I had couple of descends with GPS that won't be possible with map/compass in the conditions (backtrack is the most valuable function of the GPS device).

I would think that after this amount of time Godwin's Law (Yea, nice use Tonka) should have taken place...I bet you were looking for Hitler.

With todays technology, pre-trip mapping and trail systems, it's hard to really need to use map/compass skills. I truly wish mine were better.

islesrule7 wrote:Any suggestions on a good handheld GPS for use Mountaineering? Obviously looking for something lightweight and reliable....

Thanks all!

Earthmate PN-60. Better mapping software, better reception in canyons and pairs with InReach. My third GPS, first two were Garmin models, the Geko 101 and then 60CXs. I put off the switchover to avoid necessitating installing Parallels on my Mac to run Delorme's software—it was worth the effort.