by Dave Daly » Sun Dec 13, 2009 6:00 am
by ksolem » Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:47 pm
knoback wrote:Why are sport climbs bolted? In Hyalite, why does Bulldog World have bolts, while Come and Get It doesn't?
by hikerbrian » Mon Dec 14, 2009 3:24 am
ksolem wrote:Yeah right. Then why build trails? If you can't bushwhack it don't go.
I'd like to see you get around in my local San Gabriel Mtns without a cut trail. It would take all day to go 100 feet.
by rhyang » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:15 pm
Disagreement led to anger as tempers flared. Threats to access compounded the problem. To their credit, instead of fighting, Pinnacles climbers tried to work it out. In 1989 a meeting was held in an effort to air grievances. The meeting included virtually every person who was actively establishing routes at Pinnacles. [...] Eventually a consensus was reached by all the climbers at the meeting. They agreed that all existing climbs would be left intact. No bolts would be chopped and none added to climbs that had already been established, no matter by what method. It was also agreed that climbers would consider Pinnacles a traditional climbing area where the ground-up first ascent ethic was confirmed and embraced.
Although in some other places, misguided souls have placed extra bolts on routes created by other climbers, this form of selfishness has almost never occurred at Pinnacles. Do not add bolts to existing routes. [...] Better yourself so you can master climbs, rather than changing climbs to fit your ability.
by Guyzo » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:22 pm
by lisae » Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:46 pm
rhyang wrote:Brad Young's summary of Pinnacles climbing history is pretty detailed - something like 14 pages worth. Near the end there is this note -Disagreement led to anger as tempers flared. Threats to access compounded the problem. To their credit, instead of fighting, Pinnacles climbers tried to work it out. In 1989 a meeting was held in an effort to air grievances. The meeting included virtually every person who was actively establishing routes at Pinnacles. [...] Eventually a consensus was reached by all the climbers at the meeting. They agreed that all existing climbs would be left intact. No bolts would be chopped and none added to climbs that had already been established, no matter by what method. It was also agreed that climbers would consider Pinnacles a traditional climbing area where the ground-up first ascent ethic was confirmed and embraced.
He also has a couple of pages on local ethics where he recaps some climbing history, and basically states -Although in some other places, misguided souls have placed extra bolts on routes created by other climbers, this form of selfishness has almost never occurred at Pinnacles. Do not add bolts to existing routes. [...] Better yourself so you can master climbs, rather than changing climbs to fit your ability.
I understand that other areas have somewhat different local ethics, but those at Pinnacles sound pretty well defined.
by rhyang » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:07 pm
by ksolem » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:16 pm
by Guyzo » Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:38 pm
by lisae » Mon Dec 14, 2009 6:14 pm
rhyang wrote:Lisa, were all these extra bolts placed by (or with consent) of the FA-ists ? Just wondering.
You might also recall Brad mentioning that he has added & upgraded bolts on his own climbs.
Guy, I have read about bolt wars elsewhere (like the Gunks, never climbed there) and just last summer climbed a route in Tuolumne that was established on rappel - Euro Trash.
I don't own the Reid guide to Tuolumne Meadows or any Gunks books .. curious to know if they go into such details.
by Nate D » Mon Dec 14, 2009 7:17 pm
by rhyang » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:12 pm
Guyzo wrote:Rob... euro trash was rap bolted? How come the bolts get sort of sparse at the end..... ?
Dead battery??
Tuolumne is a free climbing area. Most of the first ascent parties used traditional methods, but depending on whom you talk to, traditional has different meanings. Some may have resorted to previewing, sieging, yo-yoing, or even using a hook or piton to drill pro off of. Some routes may have been roproped or pre-protected before being led through. Several routes have been rap bolted.
A fun romp up easy slabs, Euro Trash is easily the most contrived route in Tuolumne. It is an example of a style of climb somewhat common in Europe but rarely seen in the U.S. Consistently avoiding easier climbing by finding the hardest way up easy slabs, the contrived routefinding is highlighted by the crux – a 5.10c bulge through the steepest rock around, when climbing 40 feet to either side is 5.8 or so. Established on rappel by a French guide, the most surprising thing about Euro Trash is that it wasn’t chopped in the aggressive bolt wars that were occurring around the same time.
by ksolem » Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:25 pm
by lisae » Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:18 pm
ksolem wrote:Lisea, So folks have been adding convenience anchors to enable single rope raps at Pinnacles?
Hmm.
What would happen if someone installed rap stations halfway down the first and second pitches of Walk on The Wild Side in Joshua Tree just so you wouldn't have to carry two ropes out there or learn how to tie them together? Heck, even if Chris Wegener himself did it they'd get pulled in a quick minute.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to pick a bone with you. And I don't have any footprints at Pinnacles due mostly to geography. I'm just surprised that's going on unless I misunderstood you.
And besides, what good is a thread about bolting without someone getting their panties in a bunch?
by Guyzo » Mon Dec 14, 2009 10:53 pm
lisae wrote:ksolem wrote:Lisea, So folks have been adding convenience anchors to enable single rope raps at Pinnacles?
Hmm.
What would happen if someone installed rap stations halfway down the first and second pitches of Walk on The Wild Side in Joshua Tree just so you wouldn't have to carry two ropes out there or learn how to tie them together? Heck, even if Chris Wegener himself did it they'd get pulled in a quick minute.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to pick a bone with you. And I don't have any footprints at Pinnacles due mostly to geography. I'm just surprised that's going on unless I misunderstood you.
And besides, what good is a thread about bolting without someone getting their panties in a bunch?
In the case of the First Sister, the anchor is for convenience, as far as I can see. However, as the routes on that formation are 5.4 - 5.6, it sort of makes sense. And even with the anchor, the route is still run out.
The other anchor I mentioned, on the Old Coastanoan, have been added to make the descent safer, avoiding a 4th class walk off or a sketchy down climb to another anchor. I don't think the route is heavily climbed, even with the additional anchors. Also, it still takes 4 raps and two ropes to get down.
I talked to Tom Davis the other day, who has done a lot of FAs at the Pinnacles, regarding anchors on the High Peaks formations. He said by now most formation in the high peaks will have some sort of anchor on the top, to make getting off safer. He said folks used to do 'crazy things' and described a Pinnacles belay to me - ie one climber on each side of the formation, both rappeling at the same time.
All I know that before I climb on a new formation at the Pinns I want to if there is an anchor, if it is safe or if it is one manky bolt. I am glad to see good bolts added to some of the anchors.
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