Mt Hood rescue/tragedy

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phlipdascrip

 
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by phlipdascrip » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:49 am

thewellsconsortium wrote:OPB's (Oregon Public Broadcasting) show Think Out Loud did a program on Wednesday about the rescue attempt and the discussion on whether climbers should carry MLUs. Two of the guests work for Portland Mountain Rescue, and another is a climb leader with the Mazamas. The show is available to listen or download at http://www.opb.org/thinkoutloud/shows/mt-hood-search/


That was a really good show. I can only encourage everyone here to listen through the whole thing. Thanks for the link.

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:30 am

Here's the deal...

I come from a professional background (US Naval Aviation, SERE and SPECWARE) that when there was any incident which resulted in an injury or death (which unfortunately was far too often), we would immediately convene an in-depth investigation to find just what were the chain of events were which led to the final result.

We documented all the info and openly released the results to all concerned, as soon as possible after the incident, so that we could learn from them, possibly avoid from it occurring again and to see how we could to do things better.

It was well known within our community that most of our published protocols and SOP's were written in blood. ANd yes, we were in fact constantly updating them.

I believe that we as climbing community need to start accepting the fact that we need to do the same while it is fresh in our minds. It really hits home and makes a valuable impact when it is done in this fashion.

I in fact had to this with all the ORGs involved, just last July when I lost a client to HAPE.

No disrespect or malice intended to the victims. More of a deal that their deaths may not go in vain and that their possible mistakes can be a lesson learned to others so that they do not end up in the same situ and then dead.

Now, if that is not a mature manner to view these incidents, than I don't know what is.

Denying that things could have been done better, is just plain wrong. Maybe that is why these deals keep and are happening with greater frequency. Regardless of the victims experience level.

PS: I DO NOT CLIMB BECAUSE IT IS DANGEROUS. NOR DO I WANT TO DIE DOING SO. IT MY RESPONSIBILITY AS A GUIDE AND AN INDIVIDUAL WHO HAS BEEN AT THIS GAME FOR A LONG ASS TIME, TO KEEP THINGS SAFE AND FIND WAYS TO EDUCATE THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY IN DOING THE SAME. LEARNING FROM INCIDENTS AS THIS ONE, IS ONE OF THE BEST IN DOING JUST THAT.

THERE IS NO MOUNTAIN SUMMIT ON THIS PLANET, WORTH ANYONE'S LIFE.

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albanberg

 
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by albanberg » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:49 am

The Chief wrote:Here's the deal...

I come from a professional background (US Naval Aviation, SERE and SPECWARE) that when there was any incident which resulted in an injury or death (which unfortunately was far too often), we would immediately convene an in-depth investigation to find just what were the chain of events were which led to the final result.

We documented all the info and openly released the results to all concerned, as soon as possible after the incident, so that we could learn from them, possibly avoid from it occurring again and to see how we could to do things better.

It was well known within our community that most of our published protocols and SOP's were written in blood. ANd yes, we were in fact constantly updating them.

I believe that we as climbing community need to start accepting the fact that we need to do the same while it is fresh in our minds. It really hits home and makes a valuable impact when it is done in this fashion.

I in fact had to this with all the ORGs involved, just last July when I lost a client to HAPE.

No disrespect or malice intended to the victims. More of a deal that their deaths may not go in vain and that their possible mistakes can be a lesson learned to others so that they do not end up in the same situ and then dead.

Now, if that is not a mature manner to view these incidents, than I don't know what is.

Denying that things could have been done better, is just plain wrong. Maybe that is why these deals keep and are happening with greater frequency. Regardless of the victims experience level.

PS: I DO NOT CLIMB BECAUSE IT IS DANGEROUS. NOR DO I WANT TO DIE DOING SO. IT MY RESPONSIBILITY AS A GUIDE AND AN INDIVIDUAL WHO HAS BEEN AT THIS GAME FOR A LONG ASS TIME, TO KEEP THINGS SAFE AND FIND WAYS TO EDUCATE THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY IN DOING THE SAME. LEARNING FROM INCIDENTS AS THIS ONE, IS ONE OF THE BEST IN DOING JUST THAT.

THERE IS NO MOUNTAIN SUMMIT ON THIS PLANET, WORTH ANYONE'S LIFE.


Thanks Chief, I appreciate your comments. I'm thinking I should probably hire you at some point to learn some things.

Best, AB

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Sierra Ledge Rat

 
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by Sierra Ledge Rat » Fri Dec 18, 2009 8:12 am

The Chief wrote:Here's the deal...

I come from a professional background (US Naval Aviation, SERE and SPECWARE) that when there was any incident which resulted in an injury or death (which unfortunately was far too often), we would immediately convene an in-depth investigation to find just what were the chain of events were which led to the final result.

We documented all the info and openly released the results to all concerned, as soon as possible after the incident, so that we could learn from them, possibly avoid from it occurring again and to see how we could to do things better.


Some boards have "accident analysis" forums just for this purpose. The rules for posting are very strict and moderators enforce the rules. Perhaps SP could use such a forum?

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:26 pm

SLR

Thanks and concur 100%!





PS: I know you most likely understand where I am coming from my background as a retired ABHC(NAC/NPJ).

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phlipdascrip

 
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by phlipdascrip » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:15 pm

Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:Some boards have "accident analysis" forums just for this purpose. The rules for posting are very strict and moderators enforce the rules. Perhaps SP could use such a forum?


Not to be presumptuous as I assume most of you know about it, but there's a book series for that, "Accidents in North American Mountaineering".
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=s ... ng&x=0&y=0

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Fri Dec 18, 2009 2:32 pm

phlipdascrip wrote:
Sierra Ledge Rat wrote:Some boards have "accident analysis" forums just for this purpose. The rules for posting are very strict and moderators enforce the rules. Perhaps SP could use such a forum?


Not to be presumptuous as I assume most of you know about it, but there's a book series for that, "Accidents in North American Mountaineering".
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss?url=s ... ng&x=0&y=0


Already posted within this thread.

Thanks.

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kozman18

 
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by kozman18 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:25 pm

The Chief wrote:Here's the deal...

It was well known within our community that most of our published protocols and SOP's were written in blood. ANd yes, we were in fact constantly updating them.

I believe that we as climbing community need to start accepting the fact that we need to do the same while it is fresh in our minds. It really hits home and makes a valuable impact when it is done in this fashion.
. . . .

No disrespect or malice intended to the victims. More of a deal that their deaths may not go in vain and that their possible mistakes can be a lesson learned to others so that they do not end up in the same situ and then dead.

Now, if that is not a mature manner to view these incidents, than I don't know what is.


Chief, this is a mature approach, and yes we can learn from the mistakes of others. But, sorry, I need to point out that when the news broke that the climbers were missing, you said (the following day) (and I quote):

It's stupid people with this exact same attitude, that get their asses dead each and every time on this hill or any other hill when they think they will win.

By my count, Hood is kicking some ass and the the stupid people are losing.

Now everyone expects the SAR dudes to put their asses on the line to get em.

BTW: Experience don't mean shit when the hill gets pissed. This and every other hill will always win. We will always lose.

http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewto ... 08&start=0


It's the same story this time of the year, every year.

That hill is a killer this time of the year. It always will be. Experience tells me to stay away from that thing. Now that's experience that will keep my ass alive.


http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewto ... c&start=15

Here's the deal -- I don't think anyone has a problem with using incidents like this to try and help us all learn to be a bit safer when heading into the mountains. But, when blanket characterizations are made, and conclusions drawn, where the facts aren't known, then it is disrespectful regardless of what you intend. This stuff deserved to be moved to Prate and Prattle.

From everything I read, the climber who died was an experienced, prudent climber, not a "stupid" person who got his ass kicked by Mt. Hood. In fact, what little that is now known points to him trying to help an injured member of his party.

So, I think we can all learn a lesson -- in the future, let's show respect for people who are lost, injured or killed before we start throwing around labels and conclusions. When the facts are known, then it is appropriate, as Chief points out, to respectfully analyze the situation and try to glean some positive information. And no need to call victims anything but "victims" in order to perform such analyses -- labeling an individual does nothing to further that goal.

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bdynkin

 
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by bdynkin » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:00 pm

[quote="kozman18So, I think we can all learn a lesson -- in the future, let's show respect for people who are lost, injured or killed before we start throwing around labels and conclusions. When the facts are known, then it is appropriate, as Chief points out, to respectfully analyze the situation and try to glean some positive information. And no need to call victims anything but "victims" in order to perform such analyses -- labeling an individual does nothing to further that goal.[/quote]

kozman18, I feel the same way and thanks for your post. Chief's posts on this subject seemed offensive to me and didn't add anything to my undersanding of this tragedy.

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billisfree

 
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by billisfree » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:24 pm

Would be nice if people would give REAL advice, based on REAL facts.

Too much of this has been speculative.

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Alpinist

 
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by Alpinist » Fri Dec 18, 2009 5:59 pm

bdynkin wrote:
kozman18 wrote:So, I think we can all learn a lesson -- in the future, let's show respect for people who are lost, injured or killed before we start throwing around labels and conclusions. When the facts are known, then it is appropriate, as Chief points out, to respectfully analyze the situation and try to glean some positive information. And no need to call victims anything but "victims" in order to perform such analyses -- labeling an individual does nothing to further that goal.


kozman18, I feel the same way and thanks for your post. Chief's posts on this subject seemed offensive to me and didn't add anything to my undersanding of this tragedy.

+1 for both posts. Insults and offensive comments do not help anyone to learn anything. Let's keep the discussions productive and respectful and remember that families of the victims often read these messages.

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Dan Helmstadter

 
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by Dan Helmstadter » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:04 pm

+1

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Mountainjeff

 
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by Mountainjeff » Fri Dec 18, 2009 10:14 pm

+1

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gwave47

 
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by gwave47 » Fri Dec 18, 2009 11:44 pm

I either am not a good listener or wasn't able to find some of the facts I was looking for. I am in no way criticizing any of the climbers, just trying to understand the situation more. So here are my questions for anyone who can answer them.

Did they summit Mt. Hood and were on there way back down, or were they still ascending when what is believed to be "the accident" happened?

If they did summit, were they descending the same route that they ascended?

Were they originally planning on being on the Reid Glacier, or did they get off route and end up there? The reason why I ask this is because I thought I heard on the registry they indicated they would be taking the Hogsback route. I am wondering if it was intentional to be on the Reid Glacier?

Again no disrespect and my condolences to any family and friends.

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The Chief

 
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by The Chief » Sat Dec 19, 2009 2:08 am

kozman18 wrote:Chief, this is a mature approach, and yes we can learn from the mistakes of others. But, sorry, I need to point out that when the news broke that the climbers were missing, you said (the following day) (and I quote):

It's stupid people with this exact same attitude, that get their asses dead each and every time on this hill or any other hill when they think they will win.

By my count, Hood is kicking some ass and the the stupid people are losing.

Now everyone expects the SAR dudes to put their asses on the line to get em.

BTW: Experience don't mean shit when the hill gets pissed. This and every other hill will always win. We will always lose.

http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewto ... 08&start=0


It's the same story this time of the year, every year.

That hill is a killer this time of the year. It always will be. Experience tells me to stay away from that thing. Now that's experience that will keep my ass alive.


http://www.summitpost.org/phpBB2/viewto ... c&start=15

Here's the deal -- I don't think anyone has a problem with using incidents like this to try and help us all learn to be a bit safer when heading into the mountains. But, when blanket characterizations are made, and conclusions drawn, where the facts aren't known, then it is disrespectful regardless of what you intend. This stuff deserved to be moved to Prate and Prattle.

From everything I read, the climber who died was an experienced, prudent climber, not a "stupid" person who got his ass kicked by Mt. Hood. In fact, what little that is now known points to him trying to help an injured member of his party.

So, I think we can all learn a lesson -- in the future, let's show respect for people who are lost, injured or killed before we start throwing around labels and conclusions. When the facts are known, then it is appropriate, as Chief points out, to respectfully analyze the situation and try to glean some positive information. And no need to call victims anything but "victims" in order to perform such analyses -- labeling an individual does nothing to further that goal.


Why didn't you post the entire post?

This post you cite was directed towards a previous poster "Bombchaser" post of the generic people he spoke about and was NOT DIRECTED TO THE INDIVIDUALS CURRENTLY MISSING ON HOOD!

The Chief wrote:
Bombchaser wrote:I like the stupid comments people post to stories like this. These are the same people that think nobody should leave the pavement and everything within the paved area should be covered in bubble wrap.


It's stupid people with this exact same attitude, that get their asses dead each and every time on this hill or any other hill when they think they will win.

By my count, Hood is kicking some ass and the the stupid people are losing.

Now everyone expects the SAR dudes to put their asses on the line to get em.

BTW: Experience don't mean shit when the hill gets pissed. This and every other hill will always win. We will always lose.

It's the same story this time of the year, every year.


Typical! Another example of taking a post totally out of context for a personal agenda....Thanks amigo!

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