Hey MikeTX, I suffer from similar symptoms on expeditions. Mine also starts in the hip (right side only though?) and progresses to wicked cramps in the small of my back. I couldn't tell from your post if you're doing any of this already but, if so, please disregard.

I have two suggestions. First, try to hyperhydrate at the start of each day. We usually do this by drinking one liter of water as we are getting ready in the morning to replace the water lost throughout the night when breathing in dry air. The second would be to drink throughout the rest of the day by taking small sips but very often. My understanding is that the body can only absorb water at a specific rate so if you stop every hour or so and take big gulps it's not that efficient and you end up peeing more out than you should.

Good luck.

Take care not to consume too much water in any one period. Water is toxic in large quantities because it dilutes the electrolytes. Possible to drop dead if one drank many litres in one go.

I've never suffered from cramps. Whether my high intake of Salt (Sodium Chloride - the Sodium part) plays a contribution, I don't know. Though the body also needs Potassium for electrolyte balance. Try plenty of bananas.

Very interesting article. I always thought my cramps were related to hydration but perhaps they're not.

We had a similar discussion a year or so ago. One fellow presented articles suggesting that cramps were more due to overuse, with little contribution from hydration or electrolytes in the short run.

In one study, the hydration and electrolyte levels of runners were monitored. Those who got cramps (during athletic activities) did not have hydration or electrolyte levels significantly different from those who did not. Bear in mind that all started the activity with proper levels.

Hydration needs are different for everyone. I, being a very heavy sweater lose a ton of sodium and tend suffer from hyponatremia sypmtoms if I don't balance electrolite intake with water.
After my last outing solo this has become a most important necessity and I need a lot more than I imagined.

I've never heard of Cytomax. I started using an electrolite supplement "Sicaps" and have had good results. Contains four different salts and potassium
Also, if you bulk up on electros before you really get moving you won't sweat as much.

If you don't like poppin pills, V8 and raisins the highst form of potassiium I've found. Bananas seem to be kinda low on the scale and I don't care for them .
I think anyone who perspires profusely owes it to themselves to find what works for them. Cramping or staggering? What's worse in the bc? I prefer niether.

Cheers -E

Read into it what you will; I'm not saying this exercise is typical of mountaineering.
http://hwmaint.bjsm.bmj.com/cgi/content ... t/38/4/488

Note "significant" from a statistical analysis perspective is not the same as "clinically significant."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1150229/

http://217.19.231.189/customers/SPORTS% ... -Drank.pdf

I would not recommend hyper hydrating, this is not going to help you hydrate at all, instead its going to lead to hyponatriemia which is low sodium serum levels. To much water, and not enough sodium means that your body is going to piss out all of that water until it reaches an equilibrium, which leaves you even more dehydrated than before.

I used to have lots of problems with hydration until I started using Nuun (http://www.nuun.com/) which is amazing stuff. Give it a try, or look around for other electrolyte replacement products (as others have suggested). I really like it because its very light weight, packs down easily, and dissolves to give the proper ratio of water-electrolytes.

Muscle twitches

Wheter related to cramps (which I don't get), I don't know. But anyone have any ideas on what those little localised twitches are. Like a small portion of muscle is tugging in a series of rapid twitches. You might have seen horses do that.

MikeTX wrote:i'm wondering about the role that calories/carbs play in this issue. if i skimp on fuel, am i more susceptible to cramping?

A majority of our electrolytes come from the food that we eat, so I would think so. Plus, stress hormones, such as Cortisol can play a big role on balance of electrolytes in the blood. And I'm guessing that any climber on an extended climb (especially at altitude) has elevated levels of Cortisol.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:

MoapaPk wrote:
In one study, the hydration and electrolyte levels of runners were monitored. Those who got cramps (during athletic activities) did not have hydration or electrolyte levels significantly different from those who did not. Bear in mind that all started the activity with proper levels.

Interesting.

DMT

As always with population studies, we may have two very different groups of people getting pooled together. There is the possibility that those who get cramps may just be biologically different in the way they process water and electrolytes. As a crude example: only 40% of hypertensive people are salt-sensitive. The other folks with high blood pressure are pretty much unaffected by the Na in foods (within reasonable limits).

Other than the 5/28 of days I deal with women, my only bad experience with cramping was in November 2006 when I did Cheops Pyramid with cp0915 in Grand Canyon.

The main difference between this and the many other Grand Canyon hikes I have done is that I forgot (!!!) to bring Gatorade powder on the hike, and I wound up drinking water all day. Sure, salty foods are a fine source of electrolytes, but I didn't make a special point to bring salty foods because I always get plenty of electrolytes from the Gatorade that I would normally bring on such a hike. So I just had water and a bunch of sweet crap to eat all day.

As opposed to a summer hike above 12000 feet, where it is maybe 55F on a warm day, a summer hike through Grand Canyon means you will sweat a lot, since it is 100 to 110F at the bottom during the day. On a 25-mile (12-hour) trans-canyon hike in summer, I consistently drink about 2.5 gallons, of which maybe 2 gallons are Gatorade and 1/2 gallon is plain water. (The amount consumed would be a lot more than that, if not for part of the trail being at higher elevation.)

So on this Cheops hike, I forgot to bring Gatorade, and I hiked with just water anyway, unconcerned, possibly because it was November and not summer. On the way up, about half-way to the rim, I began to have serious cramping in my thighs on every step. I don't recall it to be a life-threatening situation, but I do remember that it was pretty intense, and it seriously affected my uphill performance. I also remember wishing I could just get some salty food or Gatorade from somebody somewhere.

In the summer, it would have been much more serious. I would have lost a lot more electrolytes and drank a lot more water. I'm sure more than one person has died of hyponatremia on long desert hikes, particularly on hot canyon hikes, where you have to hike uphill to finish (get out).

For the cramping, I am convinced that my situation was due to the lack of electrolytes. While it doesn't qualify as a scientific experiment, it is the only time in my life that I ever had cramping problems in my legs in all the hikes I have been on, including the 46 Grand Canyon long dayhikes I have done.

Hyponatremia is indeed a serious condition, and it's hard to go to the GC without reading the real-life examples / horror stories. But as DH said, it's from a combination of a high rate of water replacement, without electrolyte replacement.

In the studies I reported above, the blood Na levels didn't drop to the trigger levels for hyponatremia.

I occasionally have cramping issues on long runs, but have never had a problem up in the mountains. Probably because I am MUCH more focused on hydration at elevation...

In addition to forcing a liter first thing in the morning, I use Nuun regularly. For those of you who don't know, its an electrolite tablet that you drop into your water bottle. Essentially gatorade without the sugar/calories. It tastes great (particularly helpful if you are adding to treated water) and ensures that you are replacing the electrolites that you sweat out. Probably drop it in my nalgene ~75% of the time.

Btw, I am unaffiliated with the company, just a happy consumer. Only warning is to make sure you store it in someplace where it cannot get wet... otherwise its a big mess

As above, the link with stress is familiar to me. During a tough period of my life I suffered adverse reactions. Whilst I didn't get cramps, I got tension in the extremities (tetany), which led to cold hands and feet, and such tight soles that each step felt like my soles were having hair dewax treatment. So painful that it felt like my skin was being ripped off at every footstep. My electrolytes underwent related (Calcium) imbalance. Hence, how true is the saying - "getting cold feet" and "that guy makes my toes curl up". Rebalancing my brain (realigning my thoughts) is leading to recovery. Man, I wished I could have got such fast results as The Dog Whisperer. Dogs live in the now and don't have hang-ups.

The minor twitches I mentioned above, I just looked up, are related to Calcium imbalance. Again stress related. Ever see someone's lip turn up with fear. Guess we all need to chill out and live in the moment. . And sex is one of the best destressors. Yeah, I'm working on it

MikeTX wrote:

RayMondo wrote:Try plenty of bananas.

i know. unfortunately, i hate bananas.

btw, i find this article really interesting. i had no idea there was so much mystery to this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/14/healt ... 4BEST.html

Thanks for the article Mike, it's really interesting. By the way, I use to eat many bananas and cramp, so I don't think that if you eat more bananas you'll cramp less. Probably Magnesium is a more decisive factor than Potasium but I'm not sure