fatdad wrote:Why would anyone rap using the method described above?

To save weight and allow full-length rappels. Instead of carrying two 8+ mm ropes, you can carry one climbing rope and one 5-6 mm rope, but you wouldn't want to rappel on a 5-6 mm rope.

Sam Page wrote:

fatdad wrote:Why would anyone rap using the method described above?

To save weight and allow full-length rappels. Instead of carrying two 8+ mm ropes, you can carry one climbing rope and one 5-6 mm rope, but you wouldn't want to rappel on a 5-6 mm rope.

No I understand. I guess my question was more rhetorical. I've carried a 7 mm for years. Only way to go on things like Middle Cathedral, etc. But with a 7 mm you can safely rap on both lines. You can even thread the 7 mm through the anchors (though I prefer threading the fatter rope). Why bring floss like a 5 mm when you're only saving minimal weight (compared to a 7 mm) and you can't rap off it if you need to? Very unfortunate.

Guyzo wrote:I don't know about you folks but the weakness/flaw in this rap system is this: Rapelling with a single line system.

The climber was using a "cinch" - this is much like the Grigri, a devise made for the purpose of belaying not rappelling.

Looking at the whole set up it just looks bogus.

Yup...+10000000000000000!

Short cuts kill.

Keep It Simple and Standardized, triple check your system before you unclip from the anchor and odds are in your favor you will live to climb another day.


5mm=Worthless Butt Floss!

Yup.

I will always carry nothing less than an 8mm when I know that a route req's two ropes to rap.

I am willing to carry the extra couple of pounds to ensure I live to climb another day.

Three pounds! The difference between living and dying.

Sam Page wrote:

fatdad wrote:Why would anyone rap using the method described above?

To save weight and allow full-length rappels. Instead of carrying two 8+ mm ropes, you can carry one climbing rope and one 5-6 mm rope, but you wouldn't want to rappel on a 5-6 mm rope.

There's another major reason to rap on one strand, and this assumes you're either using just one rope or two ropes tied together both sides of which you can rappel on. By using only one strand, the rope remaining on top can be used for rescue purposes if someone should get stuck on the way down. Obviously, this set up wouldn't be useful for the last man down (or if you're solo), but you might be concerned enough about an inexperienced person in your group to use this set-up. Of course, you couldn't simply use a static block for this purpose-you would need to rig a releasable system so that you could lower or raise someone who was stuck.

On the other hand, doing a double strand rap, say your newbie friend gets her curly locks stuck in her rappel device or a loose piece of clothing stuck. No problem if she can rig a prusik to unweight the rope and get unstuck but what if she doesn't have this skill? If you didn't have a separate rescue rope on hand you'd have a problem at this point. I have seen people get their shirts caught in their rap devices. Or if your friend rigged a prusik or autoblock self-belay and it gets stuck you might have a problem.

If you carry just a pull cord to save weight, then you forgo the rescue option above unless you would trust your life to a 5 or 6mm cord.

This thread just reminds how many ways a climber can screw up or misjudge, etc. It used to be that most climbers did most things the same way, such as rapping with a Yosemite six or the equivalent. Now, people use a variety of different techniques, some of which are an improvement and some not.

I was going to go climbing this week with someone I've never climbed with before. The plan was to go to Tahquitz but, after talking about it with my wife (my ex climbing partner), we agreed that I would try to climb with the person at Josh. That way, if the person was unsafe or didn't run a tight system, I'd find out about while I was likely still on the ground vs. two pitches up a six pitch climb. Can't be too careful. That was true back then and probably even more so now.

Scott Cogsgrove

That System seems like you could melt the sling you extend with. I keep it simple, rap both lines, tie knots in both ends of the rope and do not use a GriGri to rappel! It is not a rappel device.

Futhermore, jamming knots and all this trick stuff is killing people... use the kiss system.

Carried over from ST.

Seems us Old Farts all have something in common...

We are still alive after all these years and 1000's of muti-pitch rappels.

What is "interesting" about the first responders first real life confrontation with a fellow human beings death?

OK, let's all take a deep breath, keep from spinning off into elf-involved ban-land...

I think most people have a strong reaction to a badly broken body. There is something instinctive activated when we see a missing part, or a limb bent in a very unnatural position. Kudos for people who can still react with help in such a situation.

Squishy wrote:The Chief wrote:
What is "interesting" about the first responders experience?


Seriously?

Why don't you go review the definition of the adjective "interesting" then come back and tell me what I meant, it's pretty damn clear. We can turn this into a teachable moment instead of just another attempt to troll and find fault by the great and powerful chef. I use the word just as it is meant, "interesting read about the event is here:" Stop your little witch hunt, this is not the thread or the place...


Never mind I will do it for you...

Quote:
in·ter·est·ing (ntr-stng, -tr--stng, -t-rstng)
adj.
Arousing or holding the attention; absorbing.

No Squishy....

Maybe when you actually have the terrible experience to encounter such a sad and life shocking event, you sir may in fact understand why I posted my question.

Until then, you will find it just "interesting".

In reality, it sucks and is not one bit "interesting" at all. It haunts you for the rest of your life.

That is my point!

The Chief wrote:What is "interesting" about the first responders first real life confrontation with a fellow human beings death?

Everything. This was one person's response. I'm sure others would have reacted somewhat differently to each phase of the event. I figure a professional medical responder would have been more "clinical" about the situation. I sense this guy wished he weren't there to have to try to figure out what to do to help. There was a lot of compassion and emotion he was trying to control so that he could help the victim but was having a hard time with it. He's obviously trying to come to grips with his trauma by writing about it.

squishy wrote:I deleted that reply out of respect for this thread, I have pm the elves my concerns. There's no point is trying to fight the slander of someone who will have it out for anything you say...

My response was also in complete respect for the death of Brian and at a loss as to what was actually interesting with regards to the link.

The link you posted was really inappropriate IMO and has nothing to offer to making this thread a learning one, finding a possible remedy to what may have led to the fatality and in regards to not having this situ occur again to any other climber.

That was my point in posting what I did.

Nothing to do with you Squishy. So please do not turn this into another fiasco of sorts that you may actually be seeking.


Safety is paramount out there. How we all do things affects others and the future of this lifestyle and where we are allowed to play/climb.

We almost lost access to a local crag due to a very similar situ, three years ago.

Just as COZ posted on ST, I agree that somethings need to remain standardized.

My point from the beginning.

No disrespect ever intended to anyone.

Mountain Impulse wrote:

The Chief wrote:What is "interesting" about the first responders first real life confrontation with a fellow human beings death?

Everything. This was one person's response. I'm sure others would have reacted somewhat differently to each phase of the event. I figure a professional medical responder would have been more "clinical" about the situation. I sense this guy wished he weren't there to have to try to figure out what to do to help. There was a lot of compassion and emotion he was trying to control so that he could help the victim but was having a hard time with it. He's obviously trying to come to grips with his trauma by writing about it.

I can honestly buy that.... 100%

Good post.

A mild diversion.

One I was "scrambling" up a cliff, when a fellow above knocked off a loose rock. I heard the scuffle and put up my hands to divert the rock, like a volleyball. I hit the rock and did manage to deflect it away from hitting my companions.

It wasn't a volleyball, so it crushed the tips of three fingers; no bones were broken, but I remember seeing droplets of blood fly out. The fingers stung a bit, but as with many crushing injuries, it was self-numbing. I found this fascinating; I curled my fingers into my palm tightly, to staunch the blood loss. We were on a cliff, so it made most sense to me to climb to the top, rather than try to work on a small ledge, with just one partly-paralyzed hand. I didn't think of this as a bad injury, but I was dripping a lot of blood.

That was when I found out that my good buddy was deathly afraid of the sight of blood. He pleaded with me to close the wounds immediately, as he was sure he would faint and fall to his death. He was really losing it, so I just went ahead as fast as I could, got to a level spot, and used moleskin strips and tape to seal the wounds. Oddly enough, there was a trained paramedic there, but his 1st-aid kit had just one band-aid, and he just looked at the wounds with dismay, so I declined the help.

Other than being a "hero" story, this event re-enforced that: people can react very differently in an emergency situation, much out of our expectations. We really don't know until it happens, and it is good to know the range of human reactions. CPR dummies don't bleed, and if they have any limbs, the limbs aren't horribly twisted beneath their bodies. The poor fellow who was afraid of the sight of blood was tough, and had trained as a parachutist. There was just something buried deep in his brain that left this one weak link.

I read the blog from the link over on Supertopo. I kept thinking as I was reading it "Man, if I were a member of Brian's family this would be killing me."

However if you go on to read some of the comments, there is some very thoughtful stuff there.

Brian Ellis' partner that fateful day has posted a very detailed account of what happened including technical details of their rigging. It's a sobering read. I think its objective as a learning narrative is clear.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/threa ... 065&tn=140

Scroll to Japhy.

OK...

Here's the deal!

I am still working out the deal of my situ last summer when Jack Pressman, a client under my charge, that died of HAPE (holds the record for onset to death at 3.2 hours btw) at 10,800' after I administered 1.25 hours of CPR and then had to pronounce him dead.

The ensuing 6 hours alone with him waiting for the local SAR to show up, and never did, was one that also fired up some very intense emotions in me after my 24 years of Naval service. Of which I did 5 of those years flying SAR, 16 responding to crashes and A/C incidents that ended in many fatalities/body recoveries the likes no one should have to deal with.

The link brought back some very vivid memories of my first friends death on the eve of Oct 3, 1977 off the coast of Spain.

Now, I find nothing "interesting" in being an initial responder and witnessing a human being breath their last breath.

It remains imbedded in ones brain forever!

And... it SUCKS!

That was the intent of my post.

I feel for Zeth more than you could ever imagine.... unless you too have been there and done that.

Brian's death needs to find a path of goodness so that we can all learn from what happened. Then, do our solemn best to not let it happen to us or anyone we are climbing with or around. As do all and any fatal incidents within our community.