welle wrote:I'm sick of people having this birkenstock-wearing granola-dyke stereotype of women climbers.

You forgot no-leg-hair-shavin', rusted-out-Volvo-drivin' and baby-in-a-sling-carryin', too.

I went to school in Ithaca--this was a pretty common type up in those parts...

(Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

I'm not sure I understood that, phlipdascrip...

my point is simply:
(I am not talking about Fortmental, I'm talking in general now, ok?)

when talking about achieving, look at what's been done
if it's about climbing, it's about climbing, not about looks

mixing in how the climber looks like, is done about female climbers, not about the males
they can be ugly as hell, but it's still about what and how they climb, not how they look like

nobody would dream of demeaning their accomplishments that way,
(a post like that would be percieved utterly odd and off topic in a serious thread about two male climbers)
but some see it as perfectly ok to do it when it comes to female climbers.
And it's recurring over and over again. It's a pattern.

When pointed out, the posters gets pissed, and discuss everything else but "why", and call it a joke, sarcasm or whatever. It's unawareness of one's own way of seeing things. I'm not going to bother to tell which message is sent. If you can't see it, I feel sorry for your daughters.


it's nice with hot climbers, (I prefer the men though)
but it doesn't matter a fly's worth when discussing a climb
it belongs in a social sector

Actually I think that so far the whole process has been largely free of judgements about the womens' looks and has focused almost entirely upon their climbs. This is good - they have both pushed hard to achieve great success, not that my judgement on that means much.

On the other hand, Edurne in particular, has clearly made a conscious effort to present herself in a way that panders to conventional ideas of female attractiveness. The earlier photos in this thread are not spontaneous family snaps, or climber shots - they are professionally styled industry images clearly designed to show sex appeal. Edurne is a professional climber, she needs big sponsors for these trips, and this is just one string in a bow that she needs to bring all this together. Good on her.

Before 2008 she did not take this path. This is pretty obvious from the photos that appeared in early 2008. I saw Edurne in person, up close, in Islamabad in mid-2007, then saw the pics of her on ExWeb in 2008 and thought, 'Whoa! WTF!". Clearly she'd been to a stylist! And why not? She's doing what she needs to do, and it's working. Though I must add, having seen them both up close, in my personal chauvinitst-pig opinion, Gerlinde certainly doesn't need any stylist to look hot ..

Yes, it woud be unfair to judge the women ONLY on their physical appearance, but as I said at the start, they have pretty much been only judged on their climbing performanc up to now, and that's great. But also clearly, on Edurne's part she has brought in the 'good looks' angle herself, so it's not like SPers or someone else made it up and forced it on her. Gerlinde may be hot, but there are lots of hot girls around. Girls who can break trail at 8200m on K2 like she did? Not so many. Lead the men through thigh-deep snow on G2 at 7900m? No. Gerlinde is a machine and puts most men on the mountain to shame - and she doesn't climb with the entourage of paid helpers like Oh or Edurne.

To think that people ignore physical appearance is naive to the point of ridiculous. People notice it and take it on board. It happens everywhere all the time, in real life and in climbing. It's biological, not political. David Breashears made People magazine's list as "Hottest Explorer" several years ago, and I know of at least one fight between female clients over who would get the hottest guide, on one expedition (both were famous, one not so hot:). It goes both ways, always has.

D

butitsadryheat wrote:It's what matters to him.
She degraded herself by posing for the suggestive photos in the first place. She caused people to look at her that way. She got what she wanted, and so did he. Two consenting adults.[/i]

I agree. Edurne Pasabans choice. What FortMental wants too. WinWin The bad side of this is what was in a debate during the Olympics. Some women had made similar photos like Edurne Pasabans. Their choice again. One of the athletes was *much more naked* than the other and a topic about the children who had her as the big idol before and how they felt came up. This is the bad side. If you look up to an athlete or other public person for their achievements and one day you see the person in a xxx magazine or half naked magazine you get very disappointed. This was the point many parents of sad and disappointed kids raised. They lack the feeling of responsibility to the people who like them for something else but the body. I feel sad for the children who had sport idols which changed to something else.

FortMental wrote:

Now I am very happy! Oh Eun-sun arrived at the summit of Annapurna Now South Korea have FOUR people reaching ALL THE FOURTEEN 8000 METER MOUNTAINS!!!

Notice that nobody on this forum objected to the blatant nationalism; not even Lolli and her Swedes... who have 0 (zero) "people who have reached ALL FOURTEEN 8000 METER MOUNTAINS!!!" Was there an outcry directed at LinTheDjinn, who joined SP 3 days ago just to rub our non-Korean noses in Oh Eun-sun's achievement? Did anyone berate LinTheDjinn for denigrating the climbing achievements of climbers from Chad? or Thailand? or Greece? or Lithuania? Was LinTheDjinn called to the carpet for making nationalism the whole point of S. Korean mountaineering (and short track speed skating)? NooooooooOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooo!



Sorry. My intention was not to cause offense. I was maybe clumsy. And I did not point any finger or compared. I only stated facts. Korea has now four who have made all 14. Also I only stated facts about our short track team. We are very fast! If I had added comparisons with other countries it had been what you say above. I did not try to make fun or belittle achievements of other nations. You say I did. It is not true. I love Korea. Maybe that make me a nationalist. Is that a bad thing? I have traveled in the USA and I think Americans are also very nationalist and love their country. I respect that.

Now I am very happy! Pustelnik arrived at the summit of Annapurna Now Poland have THREE people reaching ALL THE FOURTEEN 8000 METER MOUNTAINS!!!
No sorry. Too many smileys. I mean it. Congratulations to Poland!!!
I will do the same when Edurne Pasaban reach the Shishapangma summit. All are fantastic athletes!!!

FortMental wrote:But, if you show a little bit of T & A.........

I hope that was not said to me

Damien Gildea wrote:To think that people ignore physical appearance is naive to the point of ridiculous. People notice it and take it on board. It happens everywhere all the time, in real life and in climbing.

D

Oh yes - and pretty people getter better jobs and better paid.
But it isn't what matters - what matters is what they climb. They could be as good looking as ever, but if they didn't manage to do what they set out to do, it's "so what".

My man objection is that it's a one way street commenting.


I don't for a second believe I will change a forum made up by like 90% men, but I do think you need to be reminded once in awhile.

Lolli wrote:when talking about achieving, look at what's been done
if it's about climbing, it's about climbing, not about looks

Exactly. Or gender. Hence (I think) he was making fun of the fact that the current hype is based on the climbers gender through blatant sexism. Seems like this type of sarcasm pushes your buttons?

butitsadryheat wrote:She degraded herself by posing for the suggestive photos in the first place. She caused people to look at her that way.

Degraded herself? Are you f#@*ing serious? We're all welcome to our stupid opinions, but that smacks of puritanical self-righteousness, your personal 'morality' and nothing more. In the face of such statements the only person is degraded is you yourself. How's that for an opinion?

People only demonise sexuality because they're scared of it, usually because religion made them so. Their infantile psuedo-morality based largely on irrational beliefs in supernatural beings have no place in discussions amongst responsible adults.

And to those who are 'disappointed' by sportspeople in sexy poses? Anyone who holds a sportsperson up to their kids as a role-model for anything other than that sport is an idiot.

Sportspeople are good at sport. If they go on to a successful career as a doctor, nurse, teacher, aid worker or humanitarian, then hold them up as a role-model worth emulating. Kicking a ball or climbing a mountain is just a game, not a model of mature humanity. Grow up.

Damien Gildea wrote:And to those who are 'disappointed' by sportspeople in sexy poses? Anyone who holds a sportsperson up to their kids as a role-model for anything other than that sport is an idiot.

Sportspeople are good at sport. If they go on to a successful career as a doctor, nurse, teacher, aid worker or humanitarian, then hold them up as a role-model worth emulating. Kicking a ball or climbing a mountain is just a game, not a model of mature humanity. Grow up.

You have very strong opinions and sound angry
Children are not what you call mature humanity. They do not see the whole picture. They have one dimensional idols. Sportspeople are role models in what they are doing best. Their sport. That is what they are admired for. That is also what the children see. That is what they are interested in. Scandals and gossip and sexy photos of the idols are interests which come in the mature humanity If a child has an idol it create inspiration and can be very positive. Sport is just a game but it is also a something that can give children a lot of self confidence and fun. In general sport is good. To have idols is also mostly positive. You also compare sportspeople with doctors and teachers and your opinion is that those occupations is of high worth but not to be a professional in sport. Your children are allowed to have a doctor or teacher as an idol but not a climber or football player? I am an idiot if I hold up Oh Eun-sun as an idol not telling my children she is good of this and that also apart from the climbing? A sportsperson can get a lot of recognition and make a lot of money and be perfect role models exactly like all other successful public persons. Why do you single them out and put them in the not allowed to be idols category?

Well put Damien.

LinTheDjinn, I don't think any of your arguments show you understood what he said. Threads that are about to entail endless irrational back and forth arguments deprived of any conversational logic make my stomach turn. So much for maturity. I'm out..

phlipdascrip wrote:

Lolli wrote:when talking about achieving, look at what's been done
if it's about climbing, it's about climbing, not about looks

Exactly. Or gender. Hence (I think) he was making fun of the fact that the current hype is based on the climbers gender through blatant sexism. Seems like this type of sarcasm pushes your buttons?

I guess I missed the sarcasm... maybe because it was indistinguishable from all the thousands of other posts of that kind which aren't sarcasm.

I agree with your reasoning at core, but I see this rather more as one of the "firsts". In this case it's gender, but it could've been anything - first one-legged, youngest, first blind, first black, first blond, first whatever. Whatever which sells.

Don't care, but I find it an impressive feat to have climbed all the 14. Whoever who does that, has my respect. First or not.

Felicidades a los amigos del Annapurna mientras miramos al Shisha Pangma. They are approaching the ACB (5600 m)

butitsadryheat wrote: you were also unable to detect the sarcasm in my post.

Yes, I was unable to detect sarcasm in that comment. If you were being sarcastic, then I apologise. I was wrong to target you personally in that case.

D

LinTheDjinn wrote:Spain media is as stupid as the Korean

Only the Spanish media

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8646995.stm