China: True the labor costs are radically cheaper than in the US or Europe, but I've seen little to support that their workmanship is shotty. A lot more things than we think are made there- heard the other day about IPhones... each has a total of $10 o Chinese labor in them, and about $200 in parts.

True some companies will cut corners, but that is the fault of the companies themselves and the decisions they are making, not the workers or processes inherent to China. I don't think these issues apply to BD, and as you say they are certified. And BD is a US company subject to US law and US litigation.

As to why something made in China might not be cheaper, that's simply up to the company. If they are happy with their market share, why should they sell an ice ax for $50 when they can do it for $70?

All that said... I wouldn't climb on these nuts, yet, without some data backing them up. But I'm glad they are working to progress the technology.

Made in Ukraine? hahahaha I bet it is a giant leap in technology. I heard next up they will make cams made out of cardboard.

Any possible new technology (if you can call plastic new) would have to be proven in use over and over before this old climber would ever trust it. When I use steel nuts, I'm usually without cams or the cracks are small, constricting and any fall would mean total dependence on the protection. Unless someone trusted tells me this hardware is absolutely bomber, has benefits that the old standard does not have, I will trust my well being to the well tested steel. Go ahead, buy the plastic ones now, take some falls on them and report to us, that is, if you are still breathing...

The scepticism displayed here is absolutely warranted. Technical rock climbing is a dangerous game, we often rely on marginal gear placements and coping with additional thoughts of not just the placement but the quality of the product would be, to put it simply, crazy. I bet the proponents of this product will have some "mountain" to climb before they can sell something like this.

myfirceblackhound wrote:

"I'm not saying any of you should go out and immediately buy some but I'm a bit surprised at how closed minded all of you are towards these. I don't see any reason to be scared of them."

Well, maybe we are sceptical about everything that has to do with climbing gear and always have been. You might not ask why, but I will tell you anyway, because climbers are the most sceptical bunch you'll ever meet. Talk is cheap, marketing BS will not do, and when we (collectively) feel that a product works, we defend it. Our life might depend on it.

BTW, what is your level of experience? I looked at your name and you have nothing posted. From what point of view are you talking to us? I would hope that you have technical rock climbing background...

asmrz wrote:BTW, what is your level of experience? I looked at your name and you have nothing posted. From what point of view are you talking to us? I would hope that you have technical rock climbing background...

+1

Have to have a little less anonymity to have real credibility.

So, fierce winds and a wave of freezing cold is making it impossible to test the nuts in these dys, but i will try them as soon as possible...

Since i am by no means a top climber, my opinion will simply be the one of the "average user", but the nuts will also be tested by a UIAGM guide.

I am also trying to arrange for some pull testing, to gain actual numerical data.


Over (hehehe)

asmrz wrote:myfirceblackhound wrote:

"I'm not saying any of you should go out and immediately buy some but I'm a bit surprised at how closed minded all of you are towards these. I don't see any reason to be scared of them."

Well, maybe we are sceptical about everything that has to do with climbing gear and always have been. You might not ask why, but I will tell you anyway, because climbers are the most sceptical bunch you'll ever meet. Talk is cheap, marketing BS will not do, and when we (collectively) feel that a product works, we defend it. Our life might depend on it.

BTW, what is your level of experience? I looked at your name and you have nothing posted. From what point of view are you talking to us? I would hope that you have technical rock climbing background...

Whether he is credible or not, no one here has actually tested these stoppers. The Chief threw out some numbers on these stoppers vs BD stoppers (props) but the strength ratings aren't enough to make me run for the hills. I use a #1 Blue Metolius TCU ALOT- that is rated to 8kN (none of the gear4rocks stoppers in the Chiefs table are rated below that). Also, he went into the background behind the company and other products but that still doesn't address the functionality of these plastic nuts. Climbers have the right to be skeptic about their gear. It seems like in this discussion that it is not only skepticism at play, but also unwillingness to field the idea that a plastic nut has potential to work.

Then there is the issue with the certs. From the gear4rocks website- The gear4rocks links cams have passed CE certification. We will now be working through the UIAA or CE certification process for our other lines of equipment. As resources and time allows we hope to gain additional certifications for all of our gear. Unfortunately at this time we are unable to determine how long it will be before paperwork & testing processes are complete. Upon completion of CE and UIAA testing, certificates will be issued with the appropriate safety labels and the gear4rocks eBay listings and gear4rocks web site will be updated to reflect the endorsement. In case anybody hasn't checked out their website, here is the link http://shop.gear4rocks.com/en/nuts-stoppers/plastic-nuts-set-of-eight/prod_58.html

So if it is the certs that everyone is worried about, don't buy them- simple solution. Gear4rocks is working towards a cert so it would be interesting to see if they actually become UIAA and CE certified. In the mean time, since people haven't actually played around with these nuts (I think the Chief said that he might have played with them), the only thing that can be said against them is that they aren't certified (which is big and I understand that).

Myfierceblackhound has been making good points (as has everyone). Climbing background would help, but most of these points that he has been making are logical points. If it turns out that he climbs 5.3, the points he made are still logical conclusions.

And I may have missed certain points that have been brought up already, and if so, I apologize

Excellent post Alex and Alois.

As Alois was referring to, skepticism is one important character trait that has most assuredly kept most of us Old Farts alive over the many decades we have been at this very dangerous game.

I know from my many what should have been a "death/grounder fall" experiences (Frolicking in the A4 and A5 world, mostly solo may I add for well over 20 years) I have come to trust (with my life time and time again) the UIAA and CE labs that extensively review the products I have chosen to use for the past 40 something years.

Before I utilize anyone's Pro, (and have done so for over 30 years now), I check into their CE/UIAA testing and Certs to verify that I will not become their Crash Test Dummy and the statistic that verifies their gear is mank and deadly.

I know from past experience that Ukrainian manu'd equipment does not have their products verified through the in depth process of the UIAA/CE labs for a reason. And, it does not cost them all that much to send their product to be tested then cert'd by any of the UIAA authorized labs.

http://theuiaa.org/accredited_laboratories.html

and

http://www.theuiaa.org/standards.html

Bottom line, if anyone here wishes to become the statistic, by all means go ahead. If you live, please let us know. And until these Plastic Nuts are Cert'd via a CE or UIAA authorized lab, no way in hell will this nutcase resort to being the stupid statistic that my Pop reminded me not to become :

"Just cus the neighbors and your friends are doing it, does not necessarily nor always mean it is the right thing nor the safe thing to do. Remember Son, Stupidity will be painful!"


Over and Out.

Edit: Additions to add address for the UIAA Labs/Process Information

I heard of several link cam failures. I have two link cams, but I only use them for anchors these days, or on alpine routes where falls would not be vertical or close to vertical.
Although gear4rocks claim a rating I would not trust my health to plastic nuts before they are approved and certified. Just personal opinion. Even though this company does look legit.

If one is planning to test these I would suggest to back up these with another piece (steel nut or a cam) just bellow for some security.

Well I guess some people in this thread get their posts moderated, while others spew hate and animosity unfettered.

+1 myfierceblackhound.

I can verify that you won't be seeing this upstanding Lunatic using them Plastic Nuts any time soon. Nothing but steel, iron and some bits of copper & aluminum on his rack Baby!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeqVlUBZ-D8[/youtube]


I just found this very interesting tid bit of info from the UIAA site and will attempt to find the results:

Plastic chocks
With the advent of commercially available chocks (wedges also known as nuts that are threaded on a wire/cord, used for protection by placing them into cracks in the rock) made of polymer materials, tests will be made in the coming year to determine whether the performance of plastic chocks is detrimentally affected by temperature extremes that may be encountered while climbing. This could lead to a proposal to limit the scope of the chock standard to metal chocks.

http://www.theuiaa.org/news_detail.php?ID=313



Out and In for the cause....

The Chief wrote:I can verify that you won't be seeing this upstanding Lunatic using them Plastic Nuts any time soon. Nothing but steel, iron and some bits of copper & aluminum on his rack Baby!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeqVlUBZ-D8[/youtube]

I love how you can hear him go from fear to euphoria in the same breath.

It of course is mandatory to break all security rad coms when you post Hound.


BTW: We have yet to see you post any or all of these amazing experiential references you speak of in regards to all the masses worldwide that are climbing and falling on this particular piece of gear???

Please do and enlighten us that are skeptical to say the least.


Also, do us a favor and grow a pair and show us your face. Continuing to hide behind a blank avatar only darkens your chances of pressing your opinion as was noted before on this thread by another well honed hardman skeptic.

Over.

I wouldn't buy them, but if someone gave me some, I might try the larger sizes only. They could be useful as a specific tool for aid climbing on sandstone, not that I do that though.

Obviously the idea is to cut weight, but a standard set of Stoppers is pretty manageable already, and bomber, which I can't say about nuts made of plastic, which could deform or slip.

I don't need a bunch of certifications to tell me if a particular idea is good, or if a new product is going to work, I can figure that out for myself, as I have used rocks slung with webbing as chockstones and I have tied off chickenheads, horns, bushes, trees, you name it, I have used it for pro at one time or another, so I ain't scared to try new pro. Chouinard himself probably used to use plain old machine nuts as pro BITD.