Today I received a threatening PM from a PellucidWombat.

Poor form Mark. My comments here are accurate.

mrchad9 wrote:Today I received a threatening PM from a PellucidWombat.

Poor form Mark. My comments here are accurate.

PM's are threatening? Holy Sheeet! Would not have been threatening had you not opened it.







Even worse form to quibble about one another's opinion about each other, regardless who you may be, on a thread about someones demise in the hills.

But, whatever.

A5RP wrote:

mrchad9 wrote:Today I received a threatening PM from a PellucidWombat.

Poor form Mark. My comments here are accurate.

PM's are threatening? Holy Sheeet! Would not have been threatening had you not opened it.







Even worse form to quibble about one another's opinion about each other, regardless who you may be, on a thread about someones demise in the hills.

But, whatever.

Was that poor grammar on my part? Perhaps I should have said I received a PM containing a threat? I didn't expect it to solicit your concern, but I had forgotten about how my posts seem to draw and arouse your attention regardless of their subject matter. Are you stalking me again?

As I recall you have done your fair share of quibbling Rick... more specifically you quibbled extensively a couple years ago in a thread about my aggressor's partner's demise in the hills.

edit: lost cause

mrchad9 wrote:Today I received a threatening PM from a PellucidWombat.

Poor form Mark. My comments here are accurate.

Interesting Chad, what does PM stand for? Not "Public Message"..... That's poor form.

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To all here and Mark (PellucidWombat)....I have no idea what this thread is about nor do I have the time to look into it. But, Mark used my name so I guess I can respond. Mark, apparently you still don't learn much from your mistakes. I just laugh telling people about that Shasta thread, usually around a nice campfire. Do you have any idea of the number of people who contacted me about that, agreeing that you needed to take ownership of it.

Let me just end your slander of me as "illogical and on a demented mental plane". Let me quote the last paragraph of an email to me from Toms mom. (Tom was Marks partner who died on top of Mt. Shasta). By the way, she is awesome and climbed Shasta after Tom died to get a better understanding of what happened to her son.

She wrote after quoting the 6 issues I gave with Marks Shasta summit bivi:

***Your call in your post for acceptance of mistakes is, to me, part of the true alpinist "psyche". More than anything, learning from others' mistakes, acknowledging possibility of your own mistakes, admitting when you do make (or may have made) mistakes, offering solutions to your mistakes, and searching out less obvious contributing factors up that mountain, is the true alpinist way to keep yourself (and others) alive. Thanks for writing your post; yours has the possibility of saving young lives. I hope it does. ***

She said it well, that is all I was trying to do. I think Mark should continue to push the limits, but just admit when he may have pushed it too far. Not that even that is so wrong...but it can lead to disaster if other factors don't go your way.

We all choose to do what we do in the mountains. No one forces us to do so or to continue on when we hear that sixth sense telling us to turn around, regardless what our partner/s say. It is up to us to take heed to that voice. To expect a partner or someone else to make that/those critical decisions for us, is selfish and totally irresponsible at best, to ourselves.

That is the case in most (including this OP) if not all incidents that end up in a fatality up in them hills. No one is to blame for our own demise, but ourselves. Period. Them hills will kill you whether you like it or not. Be prepared to die each and every time you do so. That is the nature of venturing into them hills. Fact.

A5RP wrote:. . .
That is the case in most (including this OP) if not all incidents that end up in a fatality up in them hills. No one is to blame for our own demise, but ourselves. Period. Them hills will kill you whether you like it or not. Be prepared to die each and every time you do so. That is the nature of venturing into them hills. Fact.

Finding a good climbing partner is not that easy. Many factors have to be aligned: similar skills, time availability, and mutual interest in routes, to mention a few. Finding a good climbing partner and a "friend" is even more difficult and rather than in the real life can be usually seen in the movies.

The first group: (selfish) people whose interest is only to achieve their agenda and team up with others for their own safety.

The second group: people with ethics (or feelings) and even willing to risk their lives to save others in trouble; reliable.

Well, there is another group: volunteers (and staff) taking a part of Search & Rescue (or Recovery) efforts. Sometimes they die too while helping others.

Which group do you belong to? No need to answer, just think about it.

I've climbed with various people and assisted those in trouble many times and never expected anything from them in regard to may safety. On the contrary, I expected them to leave me on the mountain if the right time comes. I don't blame them for their attitude but am fully aware of it.

A5RP wrote:We all choose to do what we do in the mountains. No one forces us to do so or to continue on when we hear that sixth sense telling us to turn around, regardless what our partner/s say. It is up to us to take heed to that voice. To expect a partner or someone else to make that/those critical decisions for us, is selfish and totally irresponsible at best, to ourselves.
. . .

Just one example: Often while developing high altitude symptoms that person may not be aware of what is going on and it's other teammates' duty (or ethics) to monitor each other and take the proper steps before the disaster might strike. If you are experienced enough you would know that a sick person may be in denial. And ego usually takes us one step closer to a disaster. As a group leader I've made the decision "turn around" many times after assuming the potential health risk if continue the climb. Why would I want to witness a disaster? Just for fun or to be in the media? Most people would criticize you anyway.

Long time ago In the German Alps I saw a solo climber practicing on the standard route climbing rock above the cable. I asked him if I could watch and learn. He agreed. On the way down my knees were in so much pain I could not walk anymore. I was very impressed when he volunteered to stay with and assist me overnight in the cold and dark mountains (with no sleeping bags) and missing his work the next day. A stranger!!!

Just for clarification: I consider myself a solo climber; my climbing partner/friend is long gone and am not expecting to find a new one; and I'm afraid to rope on the glacier or steep slopes with a stranger. But that's me and just some of my experience. Yours can be completely different. YES, mountaineering is a dangerous activity.

The second group: people with ethics (or feelings) and even willing to risk their lives to save others in trouble; reliable.

Well, there is another group: volunteers (and staff) taking a part of Search & Rescue (or Recovery) efforts. Sometimes they die too while helping others.

Which group do you belong to?

I have most often pertained to the two above in the past 44 years of actively partaking in this game. If I have a "selfish" agenda, I do it solo as to not put anyone at risk. Unless some of my regular partners wish to partner up with me. i.e Getting on or putting up some stiff aid lines that entail potentially taking some longass whippers. A4/C4 plus gigs etc.

All irrelevant IMO. One still chooses to be an active participant with whomever (partner) it may be. That responsibility ultimately lies on no ones shoulders other than that of the individual choosing to do so. Regardless of group or discipline IMO.

A5RP wrote:

The second group: people with ethics (or feelings) and even willing to risk their lives to save others in trouble; reliable.

Well, there is another group: volunteers (and staff) taking a part of Search & Rescue (or Recovery) efforts. Sometimes they die too while helping others.

Which group do you belong to?

I have most often pertained to the two above in the past 44 years of actively partaking in this game. If I have a "selfish" agenda, I do it solo as to not put anyone at risk. Unless some of my regular partners wish to partner up with me. i.e Getting on or putting up some stiff aid lines that entail potentially taking some longass whippers. A4/C4 plus gigs etc.

All irrelevant IMO. One still chooses to be an active participant with whomever (partner) it may be. That responsibility ultimately lies on no ones shoulders other than that of the individual choosing to do so. Regardless of group or discipline IMO.

You don't need to say IMO. Whatever you, I or anyone else writes is their opinion (or dishonest statement); unless, there is a reference to or a quote of a specific source.

Also my post as well as the question "Which group do you belong to?" was not personally aimed to you but to the general (SP) audience and constructed based on my experience and perception. "Yours can be completely different" but not "irrelevant."

Irrelevant, however, is what you have climbed; skills and experience are not the same (I'm not implying anything) and are subjective. One person may die in the Sierra on an easy route, another on K2. They are both dead.

A5RP wrote:One still chooses to be an active participant with whomever (partner) it may be. That responsibility ultimately lies on no ones shoulders other than that of the individual choosing to do so. Regardless of group or discipline IMO.

We all know you don't really mean that- just words you are typing I suppose. As a guide I would hope that you saw yourself at least somewhat responsible for assuring your clients' safety. If you didn't then you wouldn't be a very good one.

Similarly, when I head out with others we support the safety of the group and one of our objectives is to assure that none of us is injured or in need of outside assistance. It isn't every man and woman for themselves when we head out.

One person may die in the Sierra on an easy route, another on K2. They are both dead.

Yes.... and they made the choice to do so, in all respects. Thus no one but they should be held ultimately responsible for their death if that so ultimately occurs. That as well is IMO.

That is my point.

As a guide I would hope that you saw yourself at least somewhat responsible for assuring your clients' safety. If you didn't then you wouldn't be a very good one.

Guiding is a whole different issue and has no relevance regarding the OP and the death of one's chosen partner/s.

If my client is a complete newb, I am still responsible for their well being. If I choose to climb with someone that turns out to be the same, I can instantly suspend the activity and depart.

Guiding is held to a way different standard when it comes to responsibility. The client signs a contract (that includes many particulars) and pays a fee for a service rendered. Completely different than a normal climbing relationship between partners.