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Negative on the "GSB".

"As such, Sportiva's toe and heal welts are super narrow, and don't work well with Black Diamond or Petzl crampons."

Ya, I'll beg to differ on that. With all due respect that comment is simply nonsense. The old BD front bails suck. Too big and too wide for anything but plastic boots for a really good fit. Which is exactly what they were made for. Their newest one is much better, Heels are awesome on the BD. Petzl front bails are the best in the business. Bar none. Their heel levers a solid third.

I've fit virtually every crampon named on this thread and climbed hard in them with Baturas, Baruntses, Nepal Evos, Spantiks and the silver Trango. Sometimes more than one generation of the same boot and crampons. And the three current Scarpa ice boots as well.

In this order..easiest boot to fit a crampon to in general (and easily avaiable here in the US) ? La Sportiva, Most difficult to fit the newest Scarpa Ultra and 600. Guide is easier to fit. All on my size 45 and 45.5 boots.

Best fitting rear heel pieces? Grivel if your boots are big enough
best fitting front bails? Petzl..will work on all three brands
BD isn't terrible on either and I really like their heel levers on any boot or crampon.

"My wife has Raichle's (don't know the type) (EU 38)."

Tough maybe but I wouldn't think impossible I have fit the silver bullet Trango in a 38 to the Lynx with the front bail and a BD heel.

"I have LS Batura 2.0's (EU size 45) and LS Nepal Trek EVO's (EU 45,5)."

Both are easy to do. Done it many times with Petzl front and rears or better yet Petzl bail and BD heel. Narrow welts on the 2.0 but nothing like the Scarpa Ultra for example.

No need to weld anything and totally trash a great crampon. Just get someone to help you fit them correctly. Easy to use the basket fronts as well just not as solid in use.

Sportiva maintains all step-in crampons will fit all of their *ICE* boots.

Which is correct if you are trying to fit a a technical crampon to a boot designed for ice climbing.

Best fitting rear heel pieces? Grivel if your boots are big enough
best fitting front bails? Petzl..will work on all three brands
BD isn't terrible on either and I really like their heel levers on any boot or crampon.


Both are easy to do. Done it many times with Petzl front and rears or better yet Petzl bail and BD heel. Narrow welts on the 2.0 but nothing like the Scarpa Ultra for example.

Ah Dane...

Why not just purchase and use the crampons that are DESIGNED specifically for LS's?

If one does their research, they will indeed find out that Grivel and La Sportiva work together on design aspects had have done so for several decades.

Mix matching components makes absolutely zero sense.


I am calling bullshit on your Petzl bail claim. We dumped Petzl's cus their front bails have popped off on several type boots that many of our clients use. Grivels are far easier to "slip" into and have consitently stayed on, securely, without any failure for the past six or so years, on all boots that them clients utilize.

The rotation of the RING that attaches the front plastic/rubber component on the P's can get compromised either by grit or water that freeze at the attachment point. Grivels pin attachment alliviates that problem. Makes a world of difference when one is trying to attach their pons on a cold morning at altitude. Frustrating to say the least. The Griver plastic component covers well over 25% more of the toe btw.



As far as the metal front bail system for either, I just measured them both and Grivels surround and fit the the toe of the LS boots far more tighter/snugger.


From my experience, Scarpa and Petzl are a match as are LS and Grivel with the metal front bail systems. But! The new G20 front bails fit like a glove on both Phantoms and any LS boot (Batura's).

BD pons have the same retainer pin system as the Grivels. I/we do not prefer to utilize them in our rental inventory nor personal use.

Everyone get an opinion A5. Grivel worked with Scarpa not La Sportiva btw. Hence the GSB.
Scarpa was the ONLY boot maker involved with Grivel.

I was talking specifically about fiull auto matic crampons..WIRE bail front and HEEL LEVER rear.

You have pictured two different style crampons above.

I have used the G12, the G22 and the G20 on Scarpa and La Sportiva boots. All with fully automatic bindings..wire bale in front and lever behind. In fact the worn out G20s shown in the picture by Grivel are a buddy's of mine, Dave Searle, that Alexi at Grivel replaced after I made the connection.

Mixing and matching front or rear bails or levers makes perfet sense on full automatic crampons if you are having problems with fit.

I was speaking specifically about the full Clip Ons not the half autos that you have pictured. ON that topic specifically I found the Petzl to be the best of the 1/2 Auto, Grivel 2nd and BD a distant third when fitted to "tech" mountaineering boots boots (not full shank ice boots) like the newest N Face, the Salewa Raven or the newest Scarpa Rebel .

I have not used the 1/2 auto style binding style on rigid boots. Although it is the most common binding world wide by a fair margin.

I have no dog in the fight and past my recommnedations on specific boots and specific crampons But if I tell you it works on a crampon boot combo I am not guessing. I have not only fit the pair but either climbed in them (on grade 5 water ice) if it is a 45 or 46 or climbed with the person wearing them in the smaller sizes on similar ground.

Grivel worked with Scarpa not La Sportiva btw. Hence the GSB.
Scarpa was the ONLY boot maker involved with Grivel.

I will pass that onto Stevie Haston who informed me differently.

According to him, the GSB design was a failure in an attempt to work with Scarpa.

I disagree with you with the accessibility issue regarding the difference between the Petzl and Grivel on 1/2 Auto's forward insert design. I have frequently experienced with clients, grit and frozen debris (on the morning after at high camp) impede the attachment ring from moving freely and needing time consuming cleaning out and thawing in order to bring the upper binding body to return back and over thus allowing the toe of the boot to be inserted. Have never had this issue with any Grivel 1/2 Auto binding in over 20 years. I remember the Supers and M12's having the exact same issue when left outside the tent over night.


As far as putting a Petzl wire bail into a Grivel pon, fact is they do not naturally fit. The Grivel pon body insert hole is oval. The Petzl bail dimple is round and flat. In order to insert the Petzl wire bail into a Grivel auto pon, one must either pound it in or file it out. In doing so, it compromises the snug oval design of the Grivel wire bail to pon body marriage.

BTW, Scarpa toe boxes are at least 25% slimmer than those of the LS and Asolo rigids. The LS & Asolo rigids fit snugger because of the broader area that meets with and then fits into the Grivel bail.

Here is a perfect example:

LS Batura into a Grivel G14


Scarpa Phantom into the same


Borrowed from http://gearthirty.blogspot.com/2012_05_01_archive.html

Funny that, as I got my info directly from Stevie's boss last winter at the factory

Dane1 wrote:Funny that, as I got my info directly from Stevie's boss last winter at the factory

No reply from Stevie. Maybe he is pulling my leg as he also works for LS R&D.


Hmmmmmm.......


Thanks for the discussion Dane.

No worries, any time. Always good to see differing perspectives.
FWIW GSB was ahead of its time. But not bad technology. I suspect you'll see similar ideas in the future.

A lot to the GSB story but best to call it a failure by all involved (their admission not my speculation) not any one manufacture and not the failure of the basic technology. As it is sound.

Just an addition regarding LS, Scarpa and Grivel's association plus instructional vids from Grivel
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m9orEFTZkE[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9qUA0XS7N0[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGYVx9WU3ws[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=giqL9jvJu8g[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dnRzWtTh2k[/youtube]

Loving the PON-PASSION! Good shit.

To the OP - The studs on Petzl crampon rear sections fit wide on all of my LS boots (45.5's) as well. Pretty sure their entire line of pons use the same 4-point rear piece, so your issue with the Lynx would be seen on the sarken, vasak, dart, etc. as well. I've never had any issue though with stability or slippage using the leverlock. The leverlock (heel lever) prevents any rearward movement. I'm no expert, but seems to me that the studs on the rear sides are to prevent side-to-side slippage, not rear slippage.

btw, agree with Dane on the Petzl front bails and BD heel levers being best. baffles the mind as to why petzl still wraps the retaining strap on the bottom of the heel lever instead of the top.

another nitpick on petzl heel sections is the bar/length adjustment clip. it sits slightly above the frame, so boot lugs actually make contact mostly with this clip vs the frame itself. not ideal IMHO.

maybe grivel is the best of both worlds. hmmmmm.

Here is a thought on topic:

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2012/02 ... tting.html



Finally some one gets (again) how it is suppose to be. No tricks just a perfect friction fit. Petzl Lynx on a Scarpa Phantom Ultra and no back binding. Heel tabs are a perfect fit on my 45 Scarpa Ultra. One of the most difficult to fit modern boots until just recently. Petzl front bail, BD heel and a asym connecting bar the Sabertooth is th best fit I have found.

Dane1 wrote:Ya, I'll beg to differ on that. With all due respect that comment is simply nonsense.

Your differing doesn't change the slop ass fit between Sportiva boots and BD pons.

You seem to think it should, though.. oddly.

Hey Dane... are these $60 US for 2ea?

Cold Thistle hammers?

As the web site says, they are $60 each.

http://coldthistle.blogspot.com/2012/10 ... mmers.html

Ben B wrote:Your differing doesn't change the slop ass fit between Sportiva boots and BD pons.

Well pardon me Ben. Forgot who's nonsense I was quoting there.

But glad you have joined the party and actually noticed how different crampons fit.
But save your preaching to the choir will ya. Your sarcasm is touching though.

But please enlighten us on the actual boot size, actual boot model and actual crampon that gives you a "slop ass fit?
I'm pretty curious having climbed a lot WI5 in those combos (with the original big bail) and not lost a crampon or died yet.
And I am just the tip of the iceberg on real world use. Colin Haley seems to do will with those same combos and the original bigger front bail.

As I said I have owned multiple La Sportiva boots and multiple BD crampons. Easy enough to make any of them fit better if they don't fit well enough already. Issues on the really tiny boots (38 or so down) and some issues on the really big boots. (47 up) You fix that by ordering the newest BD bail if you have a problem. Where do you think the idea of that betetr bail design came from, at least in part?[/b] The old style, bigger (used now for more than a decade) bail doesn't fit the newest low profile boots the best. Awesome on palstic though. But there are worse examples. I prefer to just simplfy things and use a Petzl bail on my BDs. Just as many others are doing now. Petzl? Never seen a problem fitting La Sportiva boot on Petzl crampons..as in ZERO, none. Although I do prefer a BD rear lever. I'd also not be surprised if my definition of "fitting" is a lot more definative and precise than yours.

Dane1 wrote:Cold Thistle hammers?

As the web site says, they are $60 each.

OEM newer version are only $39 ea.

http://www.karstsports.com/96362.html?u ... QgodaFUAbA

And older style are $40ea.

http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/shop/p ... QgodNmwAuw


WTF?



BTW, I have made my own for only $15 total (16" X 1" piece of Cromoly Hardened Steel "T" Beam) and half an hours worth of work.