For those of you that do this - how is your rope-setup? Do you go for one rope with knots (if snow) One extra rope, or do you keep the ends of the knotted rope in coils for rescue?

Looking for a safe and efficient setup that we can practise and use.

Glacier Travel & Crevasse Rescue, 2nd Ed
http://www.amazon.com/Glacier-Travel-Cr ... B000YU8PP8
Two peeps?, Generally speaking on a standard length rope..two Kiwi Coils; one for each climber

Thanks Jesus - Do you have that book? I might have to get that one. Is the subject well covered in there?

stig,
Yes, I have the book. It's worth having in the reference library. If I recall correctly many of the rope team examples assume a party of three or more on a rope, though it does cover rope teams of two. The book also covers roped sled travel and has more detail than Freedom of the Hills, if I remember correctly as well.
FWIW, this one below got good reviews, though I have never looked through it..
Glacier Mountaineering: An Illustrated Guide To Glacier Travel And Crevasse Rescue (How To Climb Series)
http://www.amazon.com/Glacier-Mountaine ... 0762748621
Best,
JM

I use a 30m rope with kiwi's on myself and my partner. We tie one or two knots between ourselves.

15 meters between climbers for Cascades glaciers, more for Alaska. Rescue coils on each end (not sure how Kiwi coils would even work). Butterfly knots between climbers sometimes, but need enough rope in coils to reach the climber in the crevasse. The one time I caught a crevasse fall with butterfly knots was in the Ruth Gorge. It worked great, except the rope was hopelessly stuck and had to be cut.

15 meter is enough to allow rescue coils on each side - "Freedom of the hills" suggested 30 meters with knots and untying the knots in case of rescue. This sounds impractical if even possible. 30 meters with rope will also cause quite a drag - esp with knots and if/or the snow is loose/wet

Knots or not?
To summarize the issue: those in favor of using breaking knots argue that it increases the chance of holding a fall, those against argue that it takes time to untie the knots in an emergency. The discussion has been going on for years.

In Europe, it's more and more accepted these days to use breaking knots with a two men rope team on a typical glacier, and it's not a bad idea with three either. How climbers in other parts of the world see this, I don't know.
The more detailed argument is this: An unexpected and serious crevasse fall is hard to hold without knots. Even in practice, where, by nature, it's an expected fall (in a big crevasse), it's hard to hold because it's a big jolt. And the first and overriding priority if your partner falls into a crevasse is to hold him and not tumble right after him! Yes, it's cumbersome and it takes time to undo the knots to rescue your partner if they are in the way. But, bad as that is, it's really just a minor inconvenience compared to the alternative of landing at the bottom of a crevasse together. Even if the fall itself didn't cause serious injury, do you really think you can get out without help? I mean, on a typical glacier outing you'll probably only have two long axes and a couple of ice screws between the two of you. Good luck to get out of a serious crevasse with that.

Rope length
If you're a two man team with a 30 m rope, with, say, 15 m between the two of you and with three breaking knots, there is about 10 m of free rope left. Divided up, that's 5 m on each side, which is rather short to something useful with (depending on the technique you want to use). Much better would be a 50 m rope. The alternative to having free rope for a rescue is that the fallen climber prusiks back up again. Tiresome, but technically fairly easy - provided he isn't hurt in the fall, and knows what to do.

Only two climbers on a rope?
On not all too steep glacier routes, the more people on the rope the better (up to a point), simply because there are more people to hold a potential fall. At least three is considered prudent. On steep routes, where falling isn't an option, the rules are different. Often two on a rope is better, sometimes you even unrope, for safety reasons. But from the questions I take it you're not planning to do that anytime soon.

Drag
As for the rope drag on a the glacier? Never experienced that as a problem at all, regardless of the distance between my partner(s). I don't think it's ever been more than about 20 m though.


Below is an example of going unroped. The bergshrund on the right is visible, so that poses no serious risk. To our best knowledge the slope on the left isn't crevassed, but falling that way would definitely be very dangerous. However, had we been roped up and one of us had fallen, by the time the rope would be taut, the momentum would be far too much for the other to hold him. Therefore, our only chance would be if the one who fell would manage an immediate self-arrest. There are several ways to deal with this situation. We chose to go unroped - only advisable if you're virtually certain that you won't fall, and are able to do an immediate self-arrest if you're wrong and fall anyway. If that fails, well, then only one climber dies, not two.

rgg thank you for the reply. many good points!

But from the questions I take it you're not planning to do that anytime soon.

- Well more than 3 persons on a rope is of course preferable, but not always possible to round up a party like that. Traveling unroped should of course be considered when conditions allow for it. We are beginners and tend to be a bit on the safe side

Below is an example of going roped. How safe might be up for discussion.. We had used rope for the lower part of the glacier (not many crevasses). Un-arrested fall to the left would have been a huge step back, but not fatal. I remember going uphill, there was quite a drag from the rope. Think it was 30-40 m to my friend below

stigja wrote:Traveling unroped should of course be considered when conditions allow for it. We are beginners and tend to be a bit on the safe side

You're absolutely right, it's better to be safe than sorry - or dead.

stigja wrote:Below is an example of going roped. How safe might be up for discussion.. We had used rope for the lower part of the glacier (not many crevasses). Un-arrested fall to the left would have been a huge step back, but not fatal. I remember going uphill, there was quite a drag from the rope. Think it was 30-40 m to my friend below

Looking at the photo I must say I don't see the reason for that 30-40 m distance. When I'm roped up, I'll only be that far from my partner on much steeper terrain, typically such that one of us is climbing (or descending) at the time. To be precise, I mean terrain that's too steep to just walk up or down or even to zig zag. There isn't much rope drag when it's real steep, it's just hanging loosely against the snow. You can feel the weight though. Once, as we were descending a short, steep slope and my partner was already at the bottom, I even decided to unrope because the weight was pulling me out of balance. I felt more comfortable climbing down free.

ExcitableBoy wrote:(not sure how Kiwi coils would even work).

Good catch EB.
May apologies for responding so hastily. I should have been clearer about the coils.
Kiwi Coils vs adapted Kiwi Coils vs. mountaineers coils vs. Butterfly knot tie ins.
Which is better for a two person rope team? Seems like there's some debate out there...
I think it comes down to:
What type of terrain you are climbing? On the glacier all day (Butterfly tie in with Mountaineers Coil probably best?)
Moving back and forth between rock/alt terrain and glacier where varying rope length becomes important? (Kiwi or adapted Kiwi might be better here)
and, perhaps most importantly, given your coil setup, what is the quickest and easiest way to transition from arresting your partner's fall to setting up the initial anchor. Quick answer: adapted Kiwi or mountaineers coils/Butterfly tie in

Scroll down about halfway down the page, where Michael Powers answers the question about rope travel on the DC/Rainier.
Specifically, he discusses the slighter benefits of using the mountaineers coil over conventional kiwi coil
http://www.alpineinstitute.com/articles/ask-a-guide/
"You may also consider using a mountaineers' coil - instead of a kiwi coil - to tie off the excess rope. The disadvantage of a kiwi coil is that it places some of the pull onto your chest and upper body. I think a slightly better tie place is using your waist harness only and attaching the rope there with a hard knot (a figure 8 is fine). The excess coils can then be tied off with a mountaineers coil that are independent of your waist tie-in knot. The other slight disadvantage of the kiwi coil is that in order to lengthen the distance between climbers during a crevasse rescue situation you must undo your tie-in knot and allow excess slack in the system. However there are ways around this, and it just requires some hands-on practice to see some of the small limitations of a kiwi coil versus a mountaineers coil and to develop a system that works for your team."

More discussion on coil setups
http://freedom9bestpractice.freeforums. ... l-on-coils
http://freedom9bestpractice.freeforums. ... rope-teams
some discussion of kiwi/modified kiwi vs Butterfly tie in..
kiwi-coil-question-shortening-the-rope-t46141.html
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=71605
http://cascadeclimbers.com/forum/ubbthr ... tened_rope
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/kiwi-c ... /110143234

Also, as far as books go and FWIW, I took a quick glace at the Selters book and noticed his discussion of the Kiwi was in the back of the book as part of an appendix. It probably should have been put further in front of the book, where an intial tying section should be.
I took a quick look at some of the online images of the Glacier Mountaineering (Tyson and Clellend). The diagrams in this book seemed a little clearer and thorough than Selters'.
Anyways, I hope these links are helpful. Comments, clarifications (and corrections!) welcome.

Thanks to both of you - some really good points there.

For me, it sounds like the adapted kiwi coil might be the way to go - leaves the weight on the waist and also importantly frees the (weight off the) coil so that it can be used for rescue.

And fairly easy to change "mode" from glacier to climbing. The prusics lacks in the picture of course - and I'm not sure if I would choose clove hitch to tie in. Whats your thought on this - and would you do any modifications on this system when going from glacier to scramble/running belay on rock other than dropping the prusics?



Saw a video of some french guides in the alpes - they just had their coil in the backpack, tying in with a figure of eight in a locking carabiner to the central loop.

Knots and distance.. I found this video

https://youtu.be/0qQUuulHGSI