Man, I thought this was a summit/climbing/scrambling/rock climbing web site. When you start posting sorry excuses for people HIKING where they should not ever be in the first place, you have learned nothing at all here.

The issue here should always be, we must be experienced enough, strong enough and have judgement good enough to avoid these kinds of screw ups. This should never ever happen on super easy terrain like Baldy.

Only if you are way out of your zone, will you get into situations that require others to risk their lives to get your sorry ass out...Think about it...This is all about competence and lack of, not about being nice and friendly.

Will you ever get it? I guess not.

orbitor wrote:^^^Duuude, I didn't realize this was a lulzy forum! My bad. I thought discussion of others' misfortune was actually instructive and not just a source of lulz on the internets.

It's a bit of both, for better and worse.

When someone wanders up an ice slope they can't descend in YakTrax, they could potentially learn several lessons (e.g. conservative decision-making, step-cutting, bringing real crampons). When they call a few thousand dollars worth of helicopter to get them down, it's an expensive learning opportunity. When they think that the only lesson is "I should have brought my helmet," it's hard not to shake one's head.

asmrz wrote:Man, I thought this was a summit/climbing/scrambling/rock climbing web site. When you start posting sorry excuses for people HIKING where they should not ever be in the first place, you have learned nothing at all here.

The issue here should always be, we must be experienced enough, strong enough and have judgement good enough to avoid these kinds of screw ups. This should never ever happen on super easy terrain like Baldy.

Only if you are way out of your zone, will you get into situations that require others to risk their lives to get your sorry ass out...Think about it...This is all about competence and lack of, not about being nice and friendly.

Will you ever get it? I guess not.

Your opinion here leaves no room for ambiguity. Clearly everyone must be experienced enough, strong enough and have good enough judgment before venturing out on routes they have done many times before. Your authoritative tone appears to indicate that you have never found yourself in a difficult situation due to poor decision making. Perhaps you never operated outside your zone of skill and comfort. If so, let me congratulate you because you must be the first such person I've come across. You must have been competent from Day 1.

Last time I checked, many summits can be reached by HIKING, so I find a discussion involving this activity to be entirely relevant to this forum.

The terrain at Baldy does not qualify as super easy in mine and many others' book, especially in winter. R.J. Secor can tell you a thing or two about underestimating that terrain.

My comment was not intended to make excuses for Ellen and Sally's rescue, rather I wanted to point out that even experienced people can get in trouble, through their own poor decision making, but that they shouldn't be judged solely by their mistakes when they have been perfectly competent in so many other instances.

seano wrote:When someone wanders up an ice slope they can't descend in YakTrax, they could potentially learn several lessons (e.g. conservative decision-making, step-cutting, bringing real crampons). When they call a few thousand dollars worth of helicopter to get them down, it's an expensive learning opportunity. When they think that the only lesson is "I should have brought my helmet," it's hard not to shake one's head.

Perfectly valid points. Though the statement about lessons learned was unfortunately phrased like that, I'm sure Ellen and Sally reflected on their experience privately and acknowledged they should have done things differently in the beginning. I just don't see them taking the helicopter hoist, or any rescue for that matter, for granted.

As I said before, you and your friends don't have a clue.

You will never learn anything about mountains and what it takes to travel in them safely, based on your and your "friends" attitude.

Baldy is some of the most benign terrain in Southern California. If that terrain is considered by you and your friends " not so easy terrain", I would suggest you find some other venue to get a challenge out of. Hiking is apparently way too dangerous for you and your friends. You have the temerity to describe your friends as experienced hikers in all seasons. More like total noobs. Spare me the bull shit and the details.

When you call for rescue, you already fucked up royally and broke all the rules of safe travel in the mountains. Going unprepared whether you don't have a clue or are cocky and trying to show off (like RJ was) makes no difference, it all ends in someone else saving you ass. That is unacceptable and totally irresponsible.

Orbitor wrote; Ellen and Sally are hikers and not necessarily mountaineers.

This really is the key to understanding why so many of us are commenting about the rescue.
The difference between hikers and climbers is fundamental and immense.
Hikers think it's just a matter of scale. Climbers would consider it a vast and fundamental shift in attitude.
If you are angered by asmrz's comments, you don't get it.
He is just as bewildered by yours.

No one on here intends to insult Sally and Ellen, it's just that their trip report, unfortunately landed on a CLIMBERS site, and this is how climbers are. Climbers don't really understand hikers. We are bewildered by much of their behavior and motivations. A Climber is NOT just an advanced, more technical hiker. A climber is a different beast.
And that different beast has different motivations and goals and even ethics. Here it gets to the crux of this thread;
One of the most fundamental ethical codes of the climber is 'self-rescue'.
I'm NOT saying that's right or wrong; just saying that's part of our code of honor.

The unfortunate situation of Sally and Ellen, when viewed from a hiker's perspective shows them exhibiting caution and mature decision making. They are responsible adults who got over-extended but smartly carried a SPOT and used it sooner than later, not being foolish.

From a climbers perspective............ well... read all the comments posted above.

wallspeck wrote:Here it gets to the crux of this thread;
One of the most fundamental ethical codes of the climber is 'self-rescue'.
I'm NOT saying that's right or wrong; just saying that's part of our code of honor.

Thanks for your notes. I recognize that there is a major difference in attitude between climbers and hikers. I respect the views of both sides, and admire the code of ethics guiding climbers. The importance of self-rescue becomes clear the more difficult and remote mountains one climbs.

As I mentioned in one of my previous comments, it's not like Ellen and Sally set out that day having an expectation that they be rescued in case of emergency. All the hikers I know do not think that calling in the cavalry when things get dicey should the primary option. However, sometimes people get in over their heads and self-rescue is simply not possible for a number of reasons (here I want to mention that the protagonists of the discussion are at an age when previous physical capabilities may not be available anymore).

In that case, using a SPOT to call for help is better than waiting and escalating the situation into a significantly greater rescue effort. I'm just hoping folks here are understanding of the fact that there are different levels at which rescue is acceptable, and that being unable to self-rescue does not make one into a total fuck-up based on that situation alone.

Orbitor, I agree.
I actually think for the two of them, considering everything, their experience, etc., that was the right choice.
They are alive, right?

Orbitor

I have a more constructive note for you and your friends

Hiking in the winterrized Southern California mountains requires more than just putting one foot in front of the other. We all need some equipment and skills. I used to teach a class called Snow School 101 in the 80s and 90s. Hundreds of people went through it. So let's look at the subject.

1. Why do I need trekking poles with snow baskets, ice axe, crampons and boots?

2. What is the right gear for me?

3. Why is it good to know what types of snow we can encounter in Southern California mountains?

4. How do we hike up a gentle iced up slope?

5. What is flat footing and duck footing? How to do it?

6. How to zig-zag up a steeper slope safely?

7. What is your body in balance and out of balance on icy slopes?

8. How to safely reverse directions?

9. What is a rest step ?

10. How to use an ice axe as a safe upper belay at all times?

11. How to traverse icy slopes safely? What is inside and outside crampon edging and how to use it?

11. How to self arrest in all conditions?

Practicing this should not take more than couple weekends. Find an icy slope with a safe run-out and go practice.

There are books that describe all these movements. Write them down and practice them until you feel comfortable.
You can thank me later. Alois Smrz, Idyllwild.
And this has little to do with climbing. All hikers moving in mountainous terrain in winter conditions should know how to do this.
BTW I might have missed a thing or two. Others could chime in...

asmrz wrote:I have a more constructive note for you and your friends

asmrz, your well-intended remarks are appreciated, and I'm not just being sarcastic. Usually suggestions for improvement are more constructive than indiscriminate bashing.

What bothered me is that you lumped everyone into the "clueless" category, without really knowing about individual experience. As it turns out, I have been climbing steep snow for several years, including winter ascents in the Sierra and in Southern California, and lead expeditions as a vetted event leader for Sierra Mountaineering Club. No incidents. While the length of my experience is not anywhere close to yours in number of years, I can provide the answer to every one of your questions and then proceed to demonstrate it.

I am in full agreement that more training is always needed. Ellen and Sally could use a review of all the things you mentioned, plus others, and I will be happy to offer to practice with them if they ask.

It also bears repeating that these women did not go up Register Ridge without knowing what they were doing. They have been using crampons and axe for years and are familiar with most, though not all the techniques needed. They would have no problem completing the route under more "normal" circumstances (and indeed they have done so previously). This time the combination of unusually tough conditions and poor judgment, followed by what to me sounded like a mental block regarding downclimbing, put them in a situation where they couldn't self-rescue. Yes, they were lucky to be able to call for help and receive it swiftly. Definitely many lessons learned, including the need to acquire more skills. Just want to make it clear they are not noobs.

All that experience should have taught them something. What is the point of experience if you are not paying attention to the lessons learned. Experience doesn't mean shit if you don't learn from it. Perhaps that will no longer be the case for these two anymore.

orbitor

When you go to winterized Baldy with just spikes for ice protection, you just breached something fundamental. That is not what even minimally experienced people do. So I stand by what I said. If I'm unprepared for the conditions because I don't understand the limitations of my gear and/or don't know what the proper gear is, I cannot and should not be called experienced. In defending your friends actions, you simply perpetuate the myth of their experience. Your own experience in the mountains should make you their harshest (albeit constructive) critic, not defender.

Enough said by me.

Be safe out there, Alois.

Denjem wrote:All that experience should have taught them something. What is the point of experience if you are not paying attention to the lessons learned. Experience doesn't mean shit if you don't learn from it. Perhaps that will no longer be the case for these two anymore.

Agreed. Sometimes that experience tells you not to go in the first place is conditions are poor, or if you day the day will exceed your fitness or level of acclimatization. It should also prompt you to consider conditions as you ascend so you don't climb yourself into a situation where rescue if the only option.

orbitor wrote:Clearly everyone must be experienced enough, strong enough and have good enough judgment before venturing out on routes they have done many times before.

No doubts about that, especially "if they have done many times before."

orbitor wrote:Your authoritative tone appears to indicate that you have never found yourself in a difficult situation due to poor decision making. Perhaps you never operated outside your zone of skill and comfort.

I believe we all do but usually are able to recover on our own. (Again, it’s called self rescue.)

orbitor wrote:Last time I checked, many summits can be reached by HIKING, so I find a discussion involving this activity to be entirely relevant to this forum.

You are correct but it does not justify ignorance.

orbitor wrote:The terrain at Baldy does not qualify as super easy..., especially in winter.

Therefore one must learn about understanding that terrain (especially about current conditions) before entering the zone.
Common sense: Why so many people die on Mt Baldy every year? Am I really more qualified and prepared than those unlucky to avoid potential troubles?

orbitor wrote:...even experienced people can get in trouble, through their own poor decision making, but that they shouldn't be judged solely by their mistakes when they have been perfectly competent in so many other instances.

And they often pay price with their lives and "[should] be judged solely by their mistakes" (in given circumstances) which usually are arrogance and overconfidence (ignorance too).

Proper preparation, anticipation, "expecting the worst..."--are just a few factors to consider. You start asking "What If" questions long before you make "Go/Not Go" decision. "Hey, lets go climbing/hiking..." is not a save approach. It’s just counting on luck. And luck is the last thing one should count on in the mountains, especially in winter.

orbitor wrote:They would have no problem completing the route under more "normal" circumstances... This time the combination of unusually tough conditions and poor judgment...

The main conclusion I can get from this story is to carry the SPOT devise (with an extra battery, I learned from other less lucky stories). And sadly this is not an unusual perception and approach to hiking/climbing.

It’s not the mountain; it's the route. It’s not the route; it’s the conditions!!!
Why do I know that?

With the experience comes responsibility not an excuse.

Orbitor,

When Cy first posted the link, I immediately saw that Ellen and Sally had simply screwed up. I don’t care how much hiking experience they had, this was an obvious newbie mistake. You just don’t go up terrain you can’t get back down. They had crampons and ice axes. It was the middle of the day. The sun was still shining when they pushed their buttons. Why didn’t they just walk back down the way they came? That’s what the other guys on this thread would have done. If that was beyond their skills, they need to take a basic winter mountaineering course and practice their skills. They need to learn not to continue up where they can’t get back down. Carrying a Spot is no substitute for skill and good judgment.

I took considerable time composing the comments I posted on the other website. I was hoping to help Ellen, Sally, and their supporters recognize and learn from their mistakes. There was no “ridicule” or “sarcastic jabs” in my posts. But the responses were basically defensiveness and a reluctance to recognize, let alone learn from, some pretty blatant mistakes.

zippetydude said, “With respect to the previous post asking for lessons learned, I wouldn't be surprised if your very honest answer turned out to be, None that I can think of...we did everything according to a reasonable plan based on a great deal of previous experience, and nonetheless ran into extremely dangerous conditions.” Ed started out with “I'm afraid I don't quite agree with bobpickering” and went on to say, “not every bad situation should be viewed as a mistake.”

Ellen basically said they had no choice since the “icy snow (35-45 degrees)” they had just climbed constituted a “terrain trap” that they couldn’t descend. (It was probably more like 30-35 degrees. My profile picture is what 45-degree ice looks like. Snow always seems steeper and icier when you’re way over your head.) As proof that nobody learned anything, Sally said, “I can think of only one mistake, and that was leaving our helmets in the trunk of my car.”

Unfortunately, orbitor is more concerned with “the ridicule and the sarcastic jabs” than the fact that this is probably going to happen again.