"Save Half Dome"

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MoapaPk

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by MoapaPk » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:51 pm

Today's elitist quote:
"We are, I know not how, double in ourselves, so that what we believe we disbelieve, and cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn." (Montaigne)

In most parks or USFS recreation areas, you will find that >90% of the populace uses just a few small corridors of trails or established rock climbs. Maybe good established trails to popular destinations help keep the use pattern that way.

In my nearby recreation area -- Charleston Peak, about 45 minutes from my house-- I have 13 different routes I take to the Charleston Peak, only 2 of which are on established trails. In July through November, the mountain is normally just a walk-up, class 1, if one uses the trails. Essentially, I never see people (other than my group) on the off-trail routes. Yet I have decided to abandon some off-trail routes, because our own few footsteps have started to mark and erode the ground.

It is important to think of all the reasons trails exist. A well-engineered trail erodes little and puts little stress on the environment. Yes, the natural life along that narrow corridor is disturbed, but that's a small part of the whole land. Even rock-climbing can be a big disruption; the approach routes to popular climbs in Red Rock are, in some cases, pretty bad. Climbing can disturb birds that nest on the cliffs. Some times it is good to localize most of the populace, to keep most of the land wild.

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dskoon

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by dskoon » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:53 pm

+1 what ChugachMnt.boy says, regarding giving people a chance to get up there.

Look, the cables were installed way back. . .when? 1911 or so? I doubt there coming down anytime too soon, esp. now with the permit/small fee system in place.

I'm all for wilderness; let's have more of it. But, the cables are there, and it does give the normal, non-climbing person a taste of what it's all about up high, along with having the presumed fitness for hiking those miles roundtrip, and pulling oneself up the cables. And, while I didn't have to deal with the permit system(we were there midweek, and it was the weekends when permits were required), it seemed like it all worked smoothly enough.

I remember last summer, being there with my son, and hanging out with some friends at Tenaya lake before my son and I did the hike from Tenaya down to the valley, via Clouds Rest and Half Dome. My buddy's girlfriend, now a proficient climber, said to my son and I,
"You guys are gonna love Half Dome. I remember doing it with a girlfriend of mine, way back when, and I loved it so much, I decided to get into climbing. . . "
My son and I did it, and we both really, really loved it. We haven't become rock climbers yet, don't know if we ever will, but that crystal blue day up on Half Dome was one we will never forget. I didn't want to come down.

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dskoon

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by dskoon » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:57 pm

MoapaPk wrote:Today's elitist quote:
"We are, I know not how, double in ourselves, so that what we believe we disbelieve, and cannot rid ourselves of what we condemn." (Montaigne)

In most parks or USFS recreation areas, you will find that >90% of the populace uses just a few small corridors of trails or established rock climbs.


When I worked for NPS, I remember hearing the statistic that 95% of the visitors never left the main visiting corridors, whatever those corridors may be. . .

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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by Princess Buttercup » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:01 pm

granjero wrote:
asmrz wrote:in short a huge urban mess


Oh come now, wouldnt an Aiguille d'Whitney telepherique be awesome? :wink:

The tragedy of the commons is alive and well, especially in our high lands :?



Image

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fatdad

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by fatdad » Tue Jul 26, 2011 10:29 pm

chugach mtn boy wrote:Fatdad, look, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone on SP who doesn't value true wilderness where it exists and doesn't share a lot of your sentiments on this. But the cables on Half Dome (which I have never used) seem like a longstanding, relatively harmless way to give Mr. & Ms. Non-elite, hardworking public a taste of, and a stake in, the mountains we love. We benefit from that.

Chugach, I'm not advocating that the Cables be taken down. I think I said that in one of my earlier posts. They've been there so long, they're pretty much expected to be there. My basic point was I don't think adding an extra set of Cables was a good idea given the efforts to limit users. I was actually thinking of the example that Alois raised of how Europe seemingly made a conscious decision to turn their mountains into playgrounds, with all the resuling infrastructure. I just decided to use the word Disneyland instead, which is not inconsistent with how some would seek to frame the parks. I for one do remember the discussions about building a tramway to the top of Half Dome, and that the proponents framed their POV as them just wanting to permit others to be able to enjoy the park more completely and that opponents of the idea were elitists who just wanted to keep Half Dome all to themselves. Sound familiar?

My other main point was that it's somewhat hypocritical to criticize climbers for placing bolts when there are so many greater examples of impact/alteration that people use without question or deem a god given right. If you love things like Half Dome then you should also be thinking about how you can minimize your impact so future generations can enjoy it the same way that you found so meaningful.

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MoapaPk

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by MoapaPk » Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:30 pm

fatdad wrote:My other main point was that it's somewhat hypocritical to criticize climbers for placing bolts when there are so many greater examples of impact/alteration that people use without question or deem a god given right. If you love things like Half Dome then you should also be thinking about how you can minimize your impact so future generations can enjoy it the same way that you found so meaningful.


It's also amazing that you were able infer criticism of "climbers" from what was said. Please separate the criticism of your stance, from criticism of a larger group. And if you want to engender lively discussion among climbers, talk about bolts. There is a difference between logic and sophistry.

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colinr

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by colinr » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:16 am

A site that describes some of the Half Dome research that has been done in a more entertaining way than the NPS links I provided earlier (page reads from bottom to top and is only about a week of this guy's blog): http://mrhalfdome.wordpress.com/2010/02/page/2/

Samples:
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Image

Image

Image

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colinr

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by colinr » Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:57 am

There would be much improvement to the situation if this were the only legal way down:
Image

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chugach mtn boy, Princess Buttercup

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Vitaliy M.

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by Vitaliy M. » Wed Jul 27, 2011 2:20 am

I already climbed Snake Dike, so you guys can take down the cables and chop the bolts too!!!

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colinr

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by colinr » Wed Jul 27, 2011 9:48 am

Fletch wrote:Nothing to say here. Just read all 4 pages and I have nothing to add. Im thouroghly confused.

Ain't politics great!

Pssst.....if you join my team you get one item from this website for only $25 or all 17 items for only $400.
http://www.cafepress.com/SaveHalfDomeStore
Don't worry if you haven't been to Half Dome, haven't ever wanted to go to Half Dome, and haven't read any non-partisan information on the issue. We just need more people to support our side than their side. I'll throw in one "Top of Half Dome Club" item for free if it will help convince you. Just let me know which one of the 71 choices of items you prefer:
http://www.cafepress.com/dd/14194177 :roll:

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fatdad

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by fatdad » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:13 pm

MoapaPk wrote:Thanks fatdad, we can start removing the bolts from the technical routes.

So, according to you, I wasn't to infer from this statement that you were criticizing climbers?

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mrchad9

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by mrchad9 » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:51 pm

If you take that as a criticism then you are very sensitive. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

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colinr

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by colinr » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:20 pm

fatdad wrote:
MoapaPk wrote:Thanks fatdad, we can start removing the bolts from the technical routes.

So, according to you, I wasn't to infer from this statement that you were criticizing climbers?

I've been on the fringe of the nerves that have been aroused by this. My point to climbers as a group would be that if the cables get subjected to a permit system or removed altogether, that is a step closer to climbs and climbers bolts being more regulated by permits in YNP, which then may set a precedent for elsewhere (I think increased climbing regulation did occur this year in YNP if I recall correctly).

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colinr

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by colinr » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:30 pm

For those needing a dose of media fear indoctrination, an article describing the epicenter of the death zone can be found here:
Image
http://www.backpacker.com/october_08_americas_10_most_dangerous_hikes_mist_trail_half_dome_ca/destinations/12629?view_all=1

Send it to your co-worker who mentioned wanting to do Half Dome next month, but who also trips over his own two feet and breathes hard while going up the three stairs outside your building. Also warn him there is a pizza joint, bar, and most other conveniecnes near the trailhead, but NO McDonalds.

Image

But don’t forget to also post it to your facebook page before YOU go and order a T-shirt about it so you can show everyone what a bada** you are!

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Wearing this while you do the hike will give you extra endurance and possibly save you if you fall:
Image

(Edited after overcoming technolgical laziness)
Last edited by colinr on Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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colinr

 
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Re: "Save Half Dome"

by colinr » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:40 pm

I have just heard a competing proposal to build a Half Dome in the middle of Manhattan: Image
To see a close up, visit this website: http://mediaspin.com/blog/?p=75
Over my dead body! We need to keep Half Dome and anything like it to natives of the newly formed South California. Northern and Central Californians are sensitive, so we’ll let them save some face by letting them have Tuolumne Meadows…not quite enough like Disneyland in that spot anyway and S.F. already beat us to the water. Image
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/07/51st-state-south-california-unanimously-approved-for-more-meetings.html

Edited due to technological disability :ugeek:
Last edited by colinr on Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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