Well gafoto, why don't these rangers just STFU and tell people they do not know what the conditions are? A nice page of excuses there wrt why they may be ignorant, but no explanation as to why it is appropriate for them to bullshit people with erroneous information.

Last spring, I spoke to a ranger at their office at the base of a 14er. He showed me a detailed weather map online and explained for several minutes how the winds would soon be over 120 mph.

Then a saw that the map was for 18,000 feet or something.

When I asked, he said, "well, it's still going to be windy on the ground."

I didn't get too upset because I figured he was just trying dissuade me from climbing because I was alone.

I live 2 miles from Red Rock Canyon National Conservation Area (RRCNCA, NV), 7 miles from the Visitor Center and ranger offices. This isn't a national park, but has lots of employees who wear uniforms. Some observations:

1) The vast majority of the uniformed workers don't get out in the backcountry at all. Their jobs are mainly in handling paperwork, or providing legally mandated supervision/liason to the volunteers or contract employees, who do most of the outdoor-related work. There is one "climbing ranger" who does get out from time to time, and some employees can be seen supervising maintenance on the very few official trails at lower elevations. The uniformed employees are most concerned with maintaining the parts of RRCNCA that are seen by casual visitors and less adventurous types. Most are clueless about the existence or condition of anything beyond that realm. They do grant permits for overnight stays or backcountry camping, and they are generally friendly, but the 9-5 jobs mainly keep them sitting behind computer screens or manning the desk at the visitor's center.

2) Most of the higher-ranking uniformed employees have pot bellies.

3) Those of us who are curious about conditions in the backcountry rely on local contacts, bulletin boards for scrambling/climbing/hikeaneering/tiddlywinks, and friends whom we think have been in the areas of interest in recent times. For example, we recently had a storm that left snow on the sandstone, with a gradient from a little snow in the south, to a lot 10 miles to the north. People e-mailed me and asked for conditions, and I simply drove out to get a view up the canyons of interest. I went up one of the canyons and peaks yesterday, and reported the conditions back to local boards. It's similar elsewhere. Want to know if there is snow on the west side of the Inyos? E-mail someone who lives in Bishop.

So yes, I partly agree with mrchad; but we differ in that I have absolutely no expectation that the "rangers" in RRCNCA will know anything. The Interagency office in Lone Pine is far, far more receptive to processing information from folks who visit the backcountry, than is our RRCNCA office. We follow a DADT policy. Have we ever reported anything? Yes, a possible marijuana operation, and a human skull. But more mundane matters (like ice in the canyons) would be incomprehensible to them.

Kidney stones + vicodin = I shouldn't post...

Nice details coming out here all around whether drug induced or not.

As far as DADT, I employed that method recently in a nearby county park because I figured nothing other than unnecessary restrictions that would directly inconvenience me could come from the particular details.

BTW, a realtor I know drives a pink jeep around both on and off the job, but that wasn't what I was driving the only time I had a negative experience with a public lands employee. I learned the expensive way to be careful where I park for the night.



Back toward the thread topic, one might ask where does our money go and why?

SeanReedy wrote:The solution to everything, especially hot air, is carbon offsets.

Nice!

Someone made the differentiation between Rangers and other park employees, and this is important. Rangers are the ones who actually work the ground, and in my experience they usually seem to know stuff. However, it also seems that you have to work them a bit to get the stuff out of them. I found this true at Rainier last year- the dude wasn't very helpful at all until we had talked for 5 or 10 minutes, he had 'tested' us, and then he spilled the beans and was very helpful (even so, he didn't know a few key points...).

As for the rest of the folks at the parks, like the one we talked to at the Teton visitor's center who had never heard of the Climber's Ranch, which was about 100 yards down the road, due to the color of their uniforms we refer to them as "Green People." After one or two learning experiences with these folks, we here at SP are supposed to be smart enough to pass.

Front desk people at White mountain ranger station in Bishop act like all knowing gods at times. When asked with specific questions they cover up their lack of knowledge with general answers, or condescending attitude. Based on personal experience rangers on Shasta, Rainier, and Talkeetna are a lot better and more knowledgeable. Even the “volunteers” that do not get paid to do their job.
I have no idea why they have to be misleading instead of just admitting “no I am not a real ranger, I have not been out there ever in my life time, and I simply can’t help you.” Don’t tell me that some road is closed, or that I need an ice axe, or something else that I don’t. Too bad the don’t read this.

You'd be surprised just who monitors/scans the message boards, Vittles. I recall some sting-type ops from the WPSMB where people were attempting to sell permits, etc. And how would they know to write "Sorry, Moose!" and "Good luck, Moose" on my failed lottery attempts a few years back. I don't exactly sign my name that way.

As for the good people staffing both the IAVC in LP and WMRS in B-town, I've never had any of the experiences you all describe, particularly V's. When I'm filing my itinerary, I'll often have to point everything out on a map, and help in figuring out the code for the areas so they can enter it on the permit. Friendly is as friendly does: when I'm confronted with a PITA patient, I react pretty much the same way. Perhaps their vibe is mirroring your own (on all counts above)?

I would think the information they give out, both in the front- and back-country, has to be coached to the lowest common denominator, which is indeed a low bar. Entrance ranger at YNP warned me about hiking to May Lake at one point: "That's a 1/2 day hike." When I squinted, smiled, and said back to her, "It's 1.2 miles!", she smiled back and we went on talking about the area.

On other words, how's it working for y'all bein' dicks all the time?

Now, as for the information they hand out, I treat it like I do using Secor: cursory, scanning, and only the initiation of planning. Then I pack what I think I might need (yeah, I tend to carry too much, but WTH), and go out and see what conditions are for myself, changing plans if I need to.

MooseTracks wrote:You'd be surprised just who monitors/scans the message boards, Vittles. I recall some sting-type ops from the WPSMB where people were attempting to sell permits, etc.

As for the good people staffing both the IAVC in LP and WMRS in B-town, I've never had any of the experiences you all describe, particularly V's.

On other words, how's it working for y'all bein' dicks all the time?

Good points. What I am reading sounds a lot like "The rangers don't realize what a bad ass I am." The rangers at Mt Rainier wouldn't let Colin Haley climb when he was under 18 without his parents signing a consent form, even though he had already established himself as an outstanding climber. They knew who he was, but they also knew it was their job to err on the side of caution.

MooseTracks wrote:...how's it working for y'all bein' dicks all the time?

It's a guy thing.

You guys are all completely missing the point again, but feel free to stick to name calling if it makes you feel better about yourselves.

The issue isn't bad recommendations from the rangers or desk people, it is bad information when they should just keep their mouths shut... from both desk people and the rangers.

The experience level of the visitor doesn't make a knee deep stream crossing waist deep, put snow on a pass that otherwise is bare, close a road that is open, move the snow line from 11,000 feet to 9,000 feet, etc...

good thread. this Is an issue.
someone mentioned this but- defining "ranger" would be a great start. some rangers will tell you straight up that they provide law enforcement and arent neccesarily trip advisors. other rangers might have it thier job description but dont range very far. i have a friend whos worked a ranger station for 10 years who hasnt been to hardly any of the places he discusses with visiting backcountry travellers. oddly enough- you would probably get good info from the guy because he can do things like- recognize how prepared the people hes talking to are. pretty basic stuff. probably not part of any training.
how that has to do with the bandying term "ranger" around gets important later on, when things go awry people are "well the ranger said...". i suppose if thier was going to be a standard where anyone could show up at a park, follow the signs and talk to someone who knew what was up, it would start here. as it is now its: "well mike works on thursday, he might know" or, as was alluded to in earlier posts: "yea and the next creek i think is just a little ways further down" (meaning 6 miles)
to be honest it bothers me that parks really hammer on the public safety issue and, to me, i think step one in that effort would be having information centers that were more reliable than, lets say, some crazy website on the internet : ) but what can be done.
solutions: is there a plan? is there managerial accountability? are people empowered to make change? etc etc etc

Moose, they wrote "good luck moose" most likely because you live in a pretty small town and a lot of people know others. Especially when you make a point to wear orange, have an orange car, and have moose written all over the place, and on every message board. It sticks out!
If their vibe mirrored my own wouldn't that go on for people in other places? As I said if front desk people at White mountain were half as knowledgeable as volunteers in Talkeetna, Shasta, or Rainier I wouldn't be bitching here. Actually people are asking for bare minimum- DON'T PROVIDE MISLEADING/FALSE INFORMATION, that's it. Is it too hard to ask? Must be OP's attitude that forced that individual to say "the road is closed," instead of admitting lack of knowledge regarding that topic.

I'm gonna be unpopular and stick in a couple of good words for the rangers. I've had mostly good experiences with most of them.

The guys in Bridgeport are really good, they helped me find a nice path around Matterhorn. Mono Lake does fast work. There's a lady named Seneca in Bishop who knows what she's doing. In Lone Pine, stock up on wag bags, they give them away for free.

I dig the folks in the foothills, like Pollock Pines, efficient and friendly. At the fast-food joints like Tuolumne or Big Oak Flat, the customers are the problem.

Last time on my way in, the lady was warning me, oh, there's lots of snow in Tuolumne Meadows. I was like, yeah, that's why I'm here, I saw a picture on the interwebs, it looked neat. She was all - really? i took that picture! And we fist pumped.

So I forgave her for questioning the size of my bear container. She thought it was too small. Whatever, dude.

This may be an unpopular response with some of the experts on this site. But about the only thing I agree on is sometimes the VC's don't know about roads being open or closed.
Other than that, look out the window driving along the Sierra and you should be able to tell what the conditions are. If you have any experience at all it's not that hard to figure out.
Rely on yourself.

I think they err on the cautious side so no one can say "so and so ranger said it's all good and I almost drowned in Evloution Creek!" or "they said good to go and I almost fell off the cornice at new army pass !!!" or something like that.