Today 4 Dutch climbers died on Mont Dolent. Apparently one (or more) of them slipped and they were roped up. They fell together.

This accident raises to me (again) a question that I also had last week while preparing to climb the Bianco grat on Piz Bernina (which we eventually didn't due to bad weather). We would climb the snow/firn part of this ridge unroped, since (in my opinion) the use of a rope without use of fixed points (i.e. icescrews or anchors), in that situation (a snow ridge or slope) poses a risk. If one slips and falls, the partner(s) might not be able to hold the fall, especially if the firn is hard.

I've talked with other climbers about this and got mixed responses, going from 'jumping to the other side of the ridge' to the use of short-rope techniques, to others agreeing they go unroped in that situation. I also remember Pit Schuberts opinion on the topic (based on experiments), which is that roping up on snowslopes/ridges has little use, especially if the snow/firn is hard frozen.

I would like to know your opinion on this subject and/or what technique you use on snowslopes/ridges?

I have asked to be taken off rope on a guided trip under such conditions.

Depends on the ridge. I go steeper snow flanks 40-50° everytime alone. On ridges it depends on the structure.

Biancograt seems to be less sharp to be safe enough if everybody jumps to an other side.
I would go solo on the snow ridge and roped on the rocky part.

Sharper ridges (like you can see on my profile) even if they're are horizontal I would go roped, because the chance to stop a fall with your ice axe is not very high and the jumping-technique would go very well.

If the terrain gets steep/unfriendly enough to be not sure to stop a fall of your partner by yourself, it is better to unrope or belay. At least this is my oppinion, because if your partner falls you have nearly no time to decide to jump over the ridge. Let' s assume your partner is behind you and falls. On which side of the ridge do you jump (you don' t have the time to look where your partner is falling)? On the other hand do you jump over the ridge fast enough if your partner falls?

Well, for my part:
If you are roped on on steep snow/ice flanks and it' s not sure you can stop a fall of your partner you should belay. Otherwise you have to go unroped if you' re familar with such a terrain.

Pretty horrible accident in which mom watched her family die:

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world ... ecbcd4994c

it is probably safer to unrope in some specific conditions

but to rope / unrope several times is not good either because it is time consuming

personaly I prefer to keep the rope : I climb nearly always with my wife and psychologicaly it would be difficult for us not to have the rope !

on the other hand, we do not often go through such exposed medium steep snow routes !

and I dislike rope parties with more than 2 persons, especially in such conditions

"millipede" parties make only sense on flat glaciers crossing but can be very risky in some other cirumstances

My oppinion:
If I am sure in the terrain (steep, expose slope/flanks) I climb unroped and use both ice axes and crampons, which are my anchor step by step. If I am/or my partner not sure and suppose a fall we climb roped, but with belay.
On the other hand it is not use on flat glaciers crossing. There is good roped, because partner can stop your fall into crack (but no on steep snow/ice).

The rope is only useful if the person(s) and/or pro attached to it will hold a fall so that's really all it comes down to for me. I take into account things like conditions, experience, and weight. I recently did a lot of climbing with a partner who had 100lbs on me. This makes things quite a bit more interesting than when you're climbing with a partner who is closer to your size. Basically, we only roped up for glacier crossings and when we could place pro. I know people do it all the time but I can't imagine tying into a rope with someone I didn't know without first ensuring that they know what they're doing. I'd rather go solo or not go at all. I seem to be on the more conservative end of the climbing spectrum in that regard though.

MountaingirlBC wrote:The rope is only useful if the person(s) and/or pro attached to it will hold a fall so that's really all it comes down to for me. I take into account things like conditions, experience, and weight. I recently did a lot of climbing with a partner who had 100lbs on me. This makes things quite a bit more interesting than when you're climbing with a partner who is closer to your size. Basically, we only roped up for glacier crossings and when we could place pro. I know people do it all the time but I can't imagine tying into a rope with someone I didn't know without first ensuring that they know what they're doing. I'd rather go solo or not go at all. I seem to be on the more conservative end of the climbing spectrum in that regard though.

totally agree. sometimes ropes give a false sense of security.

Thanks for sharing your opinions and experiences on the subject.

Happy climbing!

More than a year ago there was a forum topic specifically on short-roping. I've tried to find it using the inadequate SP search tool and did find some related topics (like this one).

Did anyone happen to bookmark the long short-rope discussion?

(Or, I suppose we could just start the discussion all over again.)

Thanks!

simpson wrote:

Arthur Digbee wrote:More than a year ago there was a forum topic specifically on short-roping. I've tried to find it using the inadequate SP search tool and did find some related topics (like this one).

Did anyone happen to bookmark the long short-rope discussion?

(Or, I suppose we could just start the discussion all over again.)

Thanks!

Here you might go to page 2.

Thanks, got that one. But I could have sworn there was a "short roping" forum topic.

I think it is a somewhat a phenomenon of European climbing that people tend to stay roped up on moderate snow slopes and ridges. Also, short roping seems to be far more prevalent in Europe than in any other place that I've ever climbed. I did a lot of my early alpine climbing in Europe and emulated what I saw guides and other climbers doing. Even now, the way that I approach alpine climbs is heavily influenced by what I perceive as European strategies. I went to NZ somewhat later in my alpine career, where they very much seem to practice the pitch it out or simul-solo mentality. There is very little use of running belays or short roping. I definitely had somewhat of an awakening and started trying out these ideas (esp on long ice routes with easier sections between hard pitches), but I seem to fall back to climbing "like a European" more often than not. I'm curious if other people who have climbed in a variety of alpine locations have noticed these differences?

I like what Lukas and Sebastion said.
Before roping up under such conditions, the slope and (or) ridge should be considered.
If someone were to fall, what is the run-out like, if there even is one?
I know that under dire circumstances, I would trust my own abilities and gear more then that of someone else...pending if my regular partner was tied to me, whom I trust implicitly.

I like Fossana's request to untie under such circumstances when you don't know the people you're tied to.

This kinda makes me question, without knowing what kind of slope they were on or the run-out, do people at large, just not have 'enough' experience with falling? Thus when it does happen, emotion and fear cripples them for the first few moments b/f rational thought can kick in to 'dig-in'? I can see 1 or 2 people reacting instantly with the proper motion but, if everyone isn't acting in unison...then I think staying untied would be the best course.
Again, I think it's entirely circumstantial.

Being on a rope WITH ANYONE, I think asking your rope-mates if they've ever taken a fall and if so, how many are valid and reasonable questions/concerns to ask that reserve the possibility to change the terms of the climb.

simpson wrote:Edit: short roping is mainly a guiding technique.

That certainly seems true. It also seems to be more common in Europe than elsewhere. I'm guessing (1) greater use of guides; and (2) more people who want to hurry up a mountain from a hut (most famously, the Matterhorn), which tends not to be an option in North America.

I ran across this:
http://www.amga.com/images/misc_PDFs/ne ... g_3_09.pdf
which is what sparked the question.

The SP forum that I still can't find had referred to this:
http://www.rescuedynamics.ca/articles/p ... ing201.pdf

FWIW.