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MikeTX wrote:i'm not sure this was a case of altitude-induced retinal hemorrhaging. the deceased climber had this same experience before. the article made it seem like a recurring problem for him.

a friend of mine used to get migraines that would cause his vision to be temporarily blurred to the point where he was essentially blind in one eye.

My take was that since it was a recurring problem, he happened to be more at-risk for the retinal problems. And altitude would only aggrevate the situation. I doubt we'll ever know for sure, though.

I've had migraine headaches where I lose a portion of my vision. Actually, the doctors believe that the start of a migraine, when the blood vessels contracted, is what caused my occlusion, which led to my retinal hemorrhaging.

John Duffield wrote:For me, I take away from this, assuming coming back alive is your top priority, how important it is to listen to your body. Up where breath comes in a long gasping tear, you have to worry about yourself. Everyone up there is at the edge of human endurance. Only he can know what was going on in his body, but my suspicion is, he ignored signals that there wasn't half his life force remaining, to get back down.

That's hard to say. A person cannot physically feel retinal hemorrhaging. And from the time a person noticed any vision problems to the time they were completely blind could be as little as a few minutes. Probably as long as it was from his first stumble to the time when he couldn't see the ladder. And, the bad part is that in certain environments, a person may not even notice a blind spot until it is quite large. Maybe at the time he stumbled, it was because of a blind spot, but he didn't even realize it. It's hard to explain what a blind spot "looks like" to somebody who has never experienced one. They don't look like anything. It's not just a big obvious black hole. Even if it was caused by a migraine, that's still not necessarily obvious. The pain of a migraine may not start until after the vision problems have come and gone for some time.

On the other hand, if he had the problem in the past, there may have been signs that he had on the ascent, that he should have recognized. I know if I ever experience what I experienced in the hours before my vision loss, I will stop whatever I'm doing and go directly to the eye doctor on call. No passing GO, no collecting $200.

If you read books on Himalayan mountaineering in the 1930s it was not uncommon for a Sherpa to die trying to help a European climber down. But I guess the general 'me first' attitude, combined with the commercialization of especially Everest climbs probably has changed that.

In Europe it would be unthinkable for a guide to leave an incapacitated client to die on a mountain.

jdzaharia wrote:

MikeTX wrote:i'm not sure this was a case of altitude-induced retinal hemorrhaging. the deceased climber had this same experience before. the article made it seem like a recurring problem for him.

a friend of mine used to get migraines that would cause his vision to be temporarily blurred to the point where he was essentially blind in one eye.

My take was that since it was a recurring problem, he happened to be more at-risk for the retinal problems. And altitude would only aggrevate the situation. I doubt we'll ever know for sure, though.

I've had migraine headaches where I lose a portion of my vision. Actually, the doctors believe that the start of a migraine, when the blood vessels contracted, is what caused my occlusion, which led to my retinal hemorrhaging.

John Duffield wrote:For me, I take away from this, assuming coming back alive is your top priority, how important it is to listen to your body. Up where breath comes in a long gasping tear, you have to worry about yourself. Everyone up there is at the edge of human endurance. Only he can know what was going on in his body, but my suspicion is, he ignored signals that there wasn't half his life force remaining, to get back down.

That's hard to say. A person cannot physically feel retinal hemorrhaging. And from the time a person noticed any vision problems to the time they were completely blind could be as little as a few minutes. Probably as long as it was from his first stumble to the time when he couldn't see the ladder. And, the bad part is that in certain environments, a person may not even notice a blind spot until it is quite large. Maybe at the time he stumbled, it was because of a blind spot, but he didn't even realize it. It's hard to explain what a blind spot "looks like" to somebody who has never experienced one. They don't look like anything. It's not just a big obvious black hole. Even if it was caused by a migraine, that's still not necessarily obvious. The pain of a migraine may not start until after the vision problems have come and gone for some time.

On the other hand, if he had the problem in the past, there may have been signs that he had on the ascent, that he should have recognized. I know if I ever experience what I experienced in the hours before my vision loss, I will stop whatever I'm doing and go directly to the eye doctor on call. No passing GO, no collecting $200.

So this is not an unheard of or semi common condition? Suddenly going blind at high altitude? Pretty frightening. I wonder what the occurence ratio is? Is it the the altitude or the proximity to the sun? Or both? I'm going to make a point of attempting to climb varying degrees of difficulty this summer blindfolded just to see. Start with simple flat hiking.

As far as the clients vs friends aspect, I wonder what the ratio of guide deaths is to clients saved? There have been some really high profile guide deaths in the mountains in the last several years. In any case, a really no-win situation for the guide. Unless he can sucessfully bring down a blinded client. That would be huge. Obviously, one of the most important qualities for the successful guide, is assessing the abilities of the client before agreeing to take them up.

A human being is a human being, regardless of location and circumstances.

I would do anything and all I could to help save a fellow human in need.

But then, maybe that is because I know what it feels like to be abandoned by those that were tasked with coming to help me and my client and never came.

Also, because I was one that went and put my ass on the line, willingly, many a times, so that another could live. I also witnessed many a brave and so very courageous men do the same, even giving their lives in the act, many times.

Below is a REAL TEAM that NEVER LEAVES ANYONE BEHIND TO DIE!








But, I do not expect you all to even begin to understand this concept.....

The Chief wrote:I wonder what the headlines and International outcry would have read if this was 13 year old Romero being left behind to die.

There's no way such an experienced climber such as Romero would ever be caught in a bad situation. After all, his high altitude experience is backed up by the almighty SEVEN SUMMITS completion!!

Ejnar Fjerdingstad wrote:If you read books on Himalayan mountaineering in the 1930s it was not uncommon for a Sherpa to die trying to help a European climber down. But I guess the general 'me first' attitude, combined with the commercialization of especially Everest climbs probably has changed that.

In Europe it would be unthinkable for a guide to leave an incapacitated client to die on a mountain.

Everest, no doubt, isn't like Europe. On the highest mountains in Europe, the O's are about 50 percent of sea level; on the summit of Everest it's about 25 percent. The trip down from the summit of Everest is much longer than from a mountain in Europe. These things factor in when considering what you can and can't do. This doesn't sound like a "me first" sort of thing; it sounds like they had to decide to abandon someone that they couldn't save anyway.

Hotoven wrote: "...an experienced climber such as Romero...his high altitude experience is backed up by the almighty SEVEN SUMMITS completion...

Ejnar Fjerdingstad wrote:If you read books on Himalayan mountaineering in the 1930s it was not uncommon for a Sherpa to die trying to help a European climber down. But I guess the general 'me first' attitude, combined with the commercialization of especially Everest climbs probably has changed that.

I'd be curious to know if these deaths were due to the inherent selflessness on the part of the Sherpa or the result of their being paid well by the sahibs and feeling that they owed it to their Western bosses to try to save them.

Also, were these Sherpa dying whilst helping European climbers on the the summit ridge or elsewhere high on the mountain? IIRC, often the Sherpa/HAP's weren't even invited/allowed to be on the summit teams on many early expeditions, leaving the "real climbing" for the "real climbers" (i.e., white guys). I've not read extensively about early Himalayan climbing, but the several books I have read talked about Sherpa deaths due to crevasse falls, avalanches, illness, etc. but I don't recall m/any who died while saving/attempting to save a Westerner.

Ejnar Fjerdingstad wrote:In Europe it would be unthinkable for a guide to leave an incapacitated client to die on a mountain.

Um, did you read the online news reports? The guides/Sherpa DID try to help the climber down, but, after hours of assistance, he was still unable to descend. It's not like they saw he was having a problem and simply said, "Too bad. We're leaving without you."

There are places (summit ridge on Everest being one) where you just ain't gonna make it if you can't move under your own power.

Here in the U.S., the first rule for rescue folks responding to an incident is "Don't create another victim." Is there a different mindset in Europe? Are mountain guides expected/encouraged to die alongside clients?

Mihai Tanase wrote:

Hotoven wrote: "...an experienced climber such as Romero...his high altitude experience is backed up by the almighty SEVEN SUMMITS completion...

I meant it to be sarcasm

From reading all the reports it seems like his rescuers did all they could to try and rescue this man. 8 hours or more above 8000 meters is not really just abandoning someone. As someone already said, they must have decided one body up there was better than three or four. I can't imagine how hard that decision was to make.

The Chief wrote:A human being is a human being, regardless of location and circumstances.

I would do anything and all I could to help save a fellow human in need.

But then, maybe that is because I know what it feels like to be abandoned by those that were tasked with coming to help me and my client and never came.

Also, because I was one that went and put my ass on the line, willingly, many a times, so that another could live. I also witnessed many a brave and so very courageous men do the same, even giving their lives in the act, many times.

Below is a REAL TEAM that NEVER LEAVES ANYONE BEHIND TO DIE!








But, I do not expect you all to even begin to understand this concept.....

I agree, if you go up as a team, you leave as a team. If your not willing to lay your life on the line for your team members then you shouldn't climb in a team. One team, one fight!

The Chief wrote:I would do anything and all I could to help save a fellow human in need.

Me too, but I think that is part of the problem on Everest, there comes to a point where there is nothing you can do. For most ppl climbing Everest (which these days don't exactly seem to be pro climbers but rather rich folks looking for an adventure that probably dont even belong on the mountain) it really IS a death zone. You got a limited amount of time there before you die as well. Probably comes to a point where there really is nothing left you can do, but die with them. With that said, that's what I'd like to think I would do, as I couldn't imagine leaving anybody in need. But it still doesn't mean my effort wasn't maybe hopeless to begin with.

Not being a high altitude climber, I'm probably talking out my ass a bit, but it does seem to make sense from what you hear about it.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:"...where two professional European mountain guides abandoned Walter Bonatti and a porter very high on the mountain, and then later blamed Bonatti and smeared his name, all the while ignoring the simple fact that he enabled their success. So I really don't want to be hearing no preaching about the so called ethics of European mountain guides and who or what they would never leave behind, lol.DMT

I just finished the translation of "Mountains of my life" into romanian - the book, with an introduction by Pierre Mazeaud (remember Freney pilar 1961...) and afterword by Doug Scott, will be available for Christmas - so many things about Bonatti are quite fresh in my mind. You forgot an important detail, DMT. The relationship between Lacedelli and Compagnoni on the left side, and Bonatti and Mahdi on the right side was not "guide-client".

At that time, Bonatti was stronger than any other in the team. Both of Lacedelli and Compagnoni were afraid of having to leave the place and having to give the benefit of the top to Bonatti. Therefore their tent was installed in a location other than that provided to oblige Bonatti down to camp below.

In my opinion, 1954 situation on K2 cannot be compared to Peter Kinloch's desertion on Everest north ridge.

Dingus Milktoast wrote:Equivalency and comparison are not the same thing. Of course they can be compared, but more aptly to the 1939 expedition. You're right, Bonatti wasn't a client, he was a part of their team! And they abandoned him.DMT

jcoalter wrote:From reading all the reports it seems like his rescuers did all they could to try and rescue this man. 8 hours or more above 8000 meters is not really just abandoning someone. As someone already said, they must have decided one body up there was better than three or four. I can't imagine how hard that decision was to make.

It's a very easy decision for an armchair Everest summiter to make.