The Chief wrote:Like Alois mentioned, steepness really has absolutely nothing to do with difficulty.
That's absurd! If that were true, blue ice on the Dana Couloir would be as difficult as blue ice on Ice Nine. Besides, why are you arguing about steepness if it's irrelevant?
asmrz wrote:Bob, When you look at the history of ice climbing in the Sierra, steepness was always estimated, right from the 1930s. People simply built upon previous experience of others and First Ascents were measured by what has been done already and in what conditions. If you started with the notion that any climber who does a FA of a gully in the Sierra should absolutely determine the correct steepness of his/her new route or otherwise will be berated by people like you, now that's pretty weird. You seem to imply that we all, all of us who ever did a FA of an ice couloir in the Sierra whether in 1950s or the 2000s are posers and liars because we didn't get the steepness right. Is that what you are saying or what is really bugging you? Do tell us.
No, that's not what I'm saying at all. If the FA party or anyone else didn't have an inclinometer, they should just report their honest estimate. If somebody comes along later and measures and reports it, the guidebooks should probably list the actual measured steepness, rather than somebody's SWAG. That doesn't make anybody a liar. On the other hand, when someone insists that something is 70º+ when he knows it's been measured at 45º-49º, he's blowing smoke.
The Chief wrote:While we are on this steepness measuring subject Bob, please do tell us what your measurements were for the Triad Couloirs (Knudtson, Smrz and Harrington) and the Moynier Couloir on Thompson were. Curious to see if they jive with the FAist records.
I did all four the same day. Moynier was ice, and the other three were snow and not terribly interesting. I climbed up Moynier and found sustained climbing from 40º to 58º with one section (bulge) at 64º. There was also some rather scary loose rock, some of which went crashing down. I downclimbed Harrington and found sustained climbing at 38º-54º with a 60º bulge. I climbed up Smrz and measured 38º-54º. Finally, I downclimbed Knudtson and measures 38º-50º.
The Chief wrote:Interesting side note, three guide books state that Ice Nine is only 70ish degs max angle (along with DR's TR in his book/article in Outside Mag and YC's accounts as well) at and above the crux chockstone bulge when it is fully in. You are implying that it is at 82degs which is near vertical when you did it? As I recall, it felt no steeper than 70ish the last time I did it and no where near dead vertical when it was fully formed in Sept of '06. Just goes to show ya Bob how nothing is constant in Sierra Alpine ice. Again, what I encountered last year on my eighth visit was a completely different story.
The 82º bulge that I measured was very short, so it may not be there all the time. The three pitches I did at 70º-73º are probably about the same every year. That agrees with the sources you cite above.
I noticed very early in my climbing that most people tend to grossly exaggerate the steepness of ice. I bought an inclinometer so I would know the actual slope of what I was climbing. If the snow or ice was smooth, I would just hold it against the surface and take a reading. If the snow or ice was irregular, I would hold one tool against the surface and hold the gauge against the handle of the tool to get a more accurate reading. I obviously never measured every inch of a couloir, but I always took a reading at the bottom and at what appeared to be the steepest sustained climbing. If I found a bulge that was steeper than the overall slope, I measured that too. I often took intermediate readings, especially if the slope was fairly constant and it wasn't obvious where the steepest point was.
I can't guarantee that my measurements were all perfect or that they will be correct under all conditions in all years. However, they ARE measurements, and they are honest. I took most of these measurements before Secor included the Triad Couloirs and before I even heard of SP or the Chief. I wasn't trying to do anything other than gather unbiased information. If someone wants to yell "BULLSHIT" because she wants to believe a number she pulled out of her ass instead of my measurements, that's her prerogative. Besides, "steepness really has absolutely nothing to do with difficulty."