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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:28 pm
by radson
I thought the whole point was that it can be used as a replacement.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:41 pm
by MoapaPk
Sorry for dipping into snide, but I get a bit tired of the hidden implication that if you use a GPS, you must not know how to use a compass. As I've pointed out before in this thread, I always carry a backup compass, and really, really, really do know how to use it. I know its limitations intimately.

GPS units are appearing in the military in many places beside smart bombs.

I have a vivid memory of navigating through a whiteout on Santa Fe Baldy, purely by compass, in Feb 1983. 18" of snow fell while we were climbing, and there were occasionally very strong gusts. The ridge took several dog legs, and the leader had lost count; at one point he started to go right; I took out the compass and map and decided we would be going at least 160 degrees the wrong way. The map was flapping in the wind uncotrollably, and I was having a hard time leveling the compass; the needle swung by up to 30 degrees. I had a hard time convincing the leader, because he couldn't actually see the map and compass, beacuse every surface got covered with snow in the time it took to explain.

I never even hinted that a GPS is a substitute for a knowledge of map and compass, or knowledge and good sense in general; indeed I've said that most people who use aGPS probably don't know what they are doing. I've just shot at some of the wilder claims about the evils of GPS, and the wonders of compass.

If people feel it is so damn important not to spoil the wilderness experience with something hi-tech or artificial, than let them leave the cams and chocks at home.

I learned to map with a compass, plane table and alidade. No one uses that crap anymore; virtually all surveying is done by differential or multi-frequency GPS.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:53 pm
by rhyang
goldenhopper wrote:If technology is so superior to traditional methods, why backpack or climb at all? Taking a Helicopter to a peak or backcountry area would be far easier and faster. Again as I said earlier, where do we draw the line? The increased risk and lack of creature comforts are part of the fun.


I look forward to when you actually start climbing .. your arguments against chalk, sticky rubber, cams and kernmantle ropes will spice up SP quite a bit :twisted:

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:10 pm
by The Chief
My point is not against the GPS. It is that of late, too many folks are creating this tech synthetic generalization and belief that all they need is a cell phone and a GPS and everything will be just fine when they venture out into "No Man's Land".

Far too many of the common sense rules and practices are being replaced with a mindset that expects technology to do all the basic thinking for them. So when shit hits the fan due to the lack of one's basic knowledge/experience of general survival skills, folks immediately call 911 on their cell phone expecting the SAR folks to come and save the day.

Part of the "Ten Essentials" is having a map and compass for the area one intends to play in and the proper know how to use them.

Oh my bad, I forgot, the concept of the "Ten Essentials", having them on ones person and knowing how to appropriately use them, no longer exists.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:14 pm
by woodsxc
MtnHermit wrote:
MoapaPk wrote:
The Chief wrote:Get in with one of these comp's and you might just learn something, MoapaPk. You'd be surprised at what one can do with a map and compass in ANY environment, in any weather condition and a in any location.

Go back and read the thread Chief. I mapped with an actually sighting compass for real, as part of my job, and have navigated thriough 8 whiteouts by map and compass. After reading your implication that one can triangulate without sighting distant objects, I now know why the military uses GPS so much.
The primary reason for the satellite array is military, not civilian, we just benefit. Let's have The Chief explain how he'd put a Hellfire Missile within 30' of a target with a magnetic compass?

Just because one can still navigate with 15th Century technology doesn't mean you have to or want to.


We count and write using technology older than that...Should we invent a new language based on smells instead of using Arabic numerals and English?

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:55 pm
by geojag
There are some people you could drop off in the middle of nowhere and they could walk directly to thier house, and then there are people that can't find thier way out of a doorway. If you are navigationally challenged, admit it and learn to use compass/map/GPS, whatever you need to make it home. If you are prone to get lost and dislike navigation, take plenty of food and water because you may be out there for a while.
GPS is good if you experience poor visability or are in an area without good maps available (or you simply didn't take time to get a map).
I almost always have a GPS with me, a cheapy Garmin Etrex. I have a GPS60C that I never use. At work, a GPS enables me to record a location quicker and probably greater accuracy than marking in on a 1:24,000 topo.
I kind of understand the arguement about not wanting GPSs in wilderness areas, but if that is the line you chose you probably shouldn't have your battery operated camera out there either.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:56 pm
by Curt
A few years ago I found a Garmin eTrex going real cheap at the REI scratch-and-dent sale. The tag said it had been returned because "the screen faded out". I slapped some fresh batteries in it, adjusted the screen contrast, checked to make sure it could at least approximately find north and the known coordinates of the store, and walked off with it for less than $30. The previous owner had returned it as defective because he/she was too much of a dolt to even figure out the basic controls of the device. And they expected to navigate in the wilderness with it? :shock:

It's been an interesting toy to have around, and I'm not above using it from time to time as an additional data source to "check up" on things. But it certainly has not replaced map and compass for me, and if I'm feeling weight-conscious enough to shave a few ounces, it stays home.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:46 pm
by jrbouldin
geojag wrote:I kind of understand the arguement about not wanting GPSs in wilderness areas, but if that is the line you chose you probably shouldn't have your battery operated camera out there either.

Ditto avy beacon, cell phone and headlamp. And why not extend it to stoves of all kinds, Swiss army knives, essentially all climbing gear, Gore-tex jackets, Vibram-soled boots, synthetic clothes, and frankly, just about everything we take with us?

I mean if you're going to be a Luddite, be a full blown Luddite and go in wearing an animal skin and carrying a torch. As for me, I'll take my Garmin Etrex and potentially save myself a helluva lot of time (and possibly grief) by using it when it helps.

ed: sp: Luddite

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:14 pm
by CClaude
jrbouldin wrote:
geojag wrote:I kind of understand the arguement about not wanting GPSs in wilderness areas, but if that is the line you chose you probably shouldn't have your battery operated camera out there either.

Ditto avy beacon, cell phone and headlamp. And why not extend it to stoves of all kinds, Swiss army knives, essentially all climbing gear, Gore-tex jackets, Vibram-soled boots, synthetic clothes, and frankly, just about everything we take with us?

I mean if you're going to be a Luddite, be a full blown Luddite and go in wearing an animal skin and carrying a torch. As for me, I'll take my Garmin Etrex and potentially save myself a helluva lot of time (and possibly grief) by using it when it helps.

ed: sp: Luddite


I TOTALLY agree with Chiefs sentiment in the last post, but I'm like you. I'm a tool user when it appears to be appropriate. In avy country it would be stupid not to go without a beacon (but even more stupid in never getting formal training on avi awareness, hopefully a Level II class). Usually I don't bother with cellphones since the reception usually sucks in the back country, and I don't want to be fooled that help is a phone call away.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:58 pm
by Clydascope
Since I have never used either, if someone comes up with a GPS that doubles as a rappel backup then I might be able to kill two birds with one stone :D

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:11 am
by rhyang
Dingus Milktoast wrote:Someone once asked me for the GPS coordinates for the base of Snake Dike on Half Dome. We were standing in the Valley. I pointed up to the dome and said... coordinate THAT.

Fucking SHEESH!

Look UP from your browsers (easy for ME to say hahahahahahaha!), turn off your electionic binkies and stand TALL IN THE SUN.

Are you human or cyborg damnit!?

DMT


Human or cyborg .. you tell me -

Image

OK, that was a cheap shot ;)

This past August I was in Tuolumne Meadows, hiking up west of Cathedral Peak. I'd been in the area before, and had done the SE buttress a couple of years ago. This was before my surgeon said he thought it was ok for me to start climbing again, so I was just going to scramble up Columbia Finger. I had my GPS with me but figured there was probably no reason to actually use it.

As I motored up the trail I saw a party of four, with ropes and gear. I asked if they were planning to do SE buttress of Cathedral. Yes, they were. But they were heading up towards Cathedral Lakes - towards the west face - they'd missed the Bubb Creek junction.

So I turned on my GPS, let it acquire a fix, and then showed them exactly where they were on the UTM-adorned map I had of the area. They thanked me, and headed off in a different direction. I had a snack and basked in the warm glow of being a good samaritan :D

Of course, one could argue that I should have just let them get lost, epic, and learn an important lesson (I guess we could argue for 7 more pages about what lesson(s) those might be :twisted: ) There was a thunderstorm later that afternoon, so maybe they had an epic anyway.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:43 am
by jrbouldin
And if you're going to use one in conjunction with a paper map, you need to know how to set the datum and projection to whatever the map is in (actually, projection is often set to UTM because that's what the overlay tics or grid on many maps (e.g. USGS topos) are in, even if the projection is not), and other basic stuff, like what an easting and a northing are, etc. If no paper map, then it's moot and you just navigate by visuals and/or critical waypoints.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:05 am
by rhyang
Sure, I could have kept the gadget in my pack and just told them to go back the way they came, turn at the correct junction, etc.

But as it happens we were in the trees, and the peak was not in sight. I wasn't totally sure how far up I was, and figured it might be possible to contour around instead of backtracking. For all I know, they may have just turned around and went back to their cars.

As far as being 'rebuffed' -- I hope you don't mean by me. If so, then you don't understand what it means to be paralyzed, to never know if you are going to walk again, to have to work every single day at recovery.

I'm glad that you were able to climb cathedral 3 months after you broke your neck, of course. I was not as lucky as you were. Take your self-righteous babble and .. have a nice day :D

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:40 pm
by rhyang
Dingus Milktoast wrote:after I repeatedly invited and was rebuffed by another climber about the same route


I'm kind of expecting an explanation. I told you repeatedly what was going on with me. If you felt 'rebuffed', then I am confused :?

If you had mentioned this to me privately, then I could have explained in more detail. But if you are going to slander me in public or tell stories behind my back .. what the hell ?

Oh screw it .. I have plenty of friends to climb with. If you are going to be like this, then have a nice life dude.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:24 pm
by MoapaPk
One of the great advantages of GPS, comes when you are bolting a route with carbon steel. With a compass, the needle may be deflected toward the bolts; with a GPS, this is not a problem.